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Thread: Infantry accompanying load carriers

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    Default Infantry accompanying load carriers

    Tactical movement of military stores and supplies to support foot-mobile or already dismounted infantry units and sub-units is a vital activity. It excludes the actual transport of such infantry.
    When terrain and conditions permit, cargo can be well protected and provided to infantry by accompanying vehicles that are preferably armoured and optionally cross-country and amphibious. But in dense vegetation, rugged terrain and urban labyrinths most vehicle types become remote. Similarly airdrop or actual supply from aircraft and VTOLs is only sometimes usable and timely.
    A particular concern for tactical deployment is that many smaller self-propelled surface vehicles such as 6x6 and 4x4 ATVs are also too large and/or heavy to accompany infantry in all conditions and also onto expedient transport such as utility helicopters and GS vehicles. The fallbacks are 3-wheel ATVs and 2-wheel cross-country bikes. The lightest of these have empty weights of about 80kgand can carry a load of up to 150kg and optionally pull a trailer. At any speed above walking pace the overall load has to include the weight of a rider.
    Animal transport such as camel, dog, horse, mule, oxen can carry only small loads relative to body weight: typically less than 33%. Animals can tow somewhat larger loads relative to body plus cart weight. But only dogs can be expediently transported together with infantry in the smaller types of vehicles, boats or aircraft. And several dogs are needed to carry a one-man load. Also, regardless of any natural forage, all load-carrying and draft animals introduce needs for additional food-types and veterinary support.
    The inevitable result is that even when small ATVs are available, conditions often require that infantry move their immediate tactical supplies in personal packs augmented by own unit portering. Since Roman times it has been known that infantry used as mules become less alert. Modern infantry on operations are often loaded with about 50kg of own equipment and sub-unit stores. And the trend is upward with increasing use of body armour, communication/reporting and surveillance systems demanded as much for political as for tactical needs.
    S.L.A. Marshall is sometimes criticised as a drummer but he accurately summarised the situation and costs then and now: “From faulty appreciation of the logistical limits of the human carrier come the loss of tactical opportunity and the wastage of good manpower”. [The Soldier’s Load and the Mobility of a Nation”, Marine Corps Association, Quantico, 1965, p47]
    Various man-powered cargo carriers have been used to reduce the need for man-packing. Above the snow-line infantry routinely use small cargo sleds. Elsewhere some use has been made of man-propelled wheeled cargo carriers but these have not been widely adopted. The basic types are briefly 1-wheel barrow, 2-wheel in-tandem bike, 2-wheel side-by-side buggey, 3-wheel and 4-wheel carts.
    One-wheel barrow used by old-time gold prospectors to push/pull gear and provisions long distances across rough country. On uneven ground a barrow is awkward to handle with a load as small as 75kg. Monowheel included on 210kg mount of 106mm M40 Rcl Rifle was problematic even for a short distance.
    Two wheel in-tandem bike used to supply NVA and VC over long distance earthen and corduroy tracks. Designed for hard surface roads but modified with extended handlebars and seat tube, pedals and chain discarded. Weighed 10 to 15kg and carried up to about 90kg of cargo when pushed by one and probably often two small-statured men.
    Buggey with two side-by-side wheels used as actual mount for Russian HMG. Golf buggey style two stub-axle layout tested by British Army in 1950/60s as carrier for infantry mortars, and wire cage buggey with low straight-through axle bar simultaneously tested as carrier for mortar bombs. Both types referred to as 1st Infantry Division trolleys. In 2001 the Singaporean Army ran a competition for an all-terrain personal 27kg load carrier (with side-by-side wheels ?): result not publicised. US Army has reportedly tested a bulky all-terrain all-purpose cart-sled (ATACS) derived from UT-2000 mountain stretcher system.
    Three and four-wheel carts assessed as relatively cumbersome and not further discussed.
    In my view both types of 2-wheel carrier have useful potential. Using modern materials and cross country wheels and tyres it is easy to see a 2-wheel in-tandem pack bicycle weighing approx 10kg and able to carry a load of up to about 75kg. Such a bike with wire panniers and straps would be somewhat heavier than the framed packs needed to load equivalent cargo onto say two human mules. However the push/puller could readily lay down and take up a cargo bike instead of having to more slowly undo or attach an extra 37kg backpack. Also despite times when both push/pullers had to work together to get a pack bicycle over/around an obstacle, there would be other times when the pack bicycle could be moved by one. Such a pack bicycle could negotiate narrow tracks and be attached to aids such as a flying fox or a cable pull up/down a slope . It could also be transported on the side or across the back of a GS or armoured vehicle, on a small boat or upright on a helicopter skid. It would increase the risk posed by anti-personnel mines.
    A 2-wheel side-by-side buggey would have many of the same attributes. When appropriately loaded fore and aft it would require less effort to keep upright. If kept small it could fairly readily traverse narrow tracks, would be easy to move on a cable run but less so on a flying fox and could bulk awkwardly when transported on the side or back of a vehicle, or on a boat or helicopter. It would increase the risk posed by anti-personnel mines. With a basic configuration similar to that of a tripod it might (with wheels adjusted or detached) also be usable as a weapon mount.
    That is enough to survey the topic. Infantry could benefit by having one or two types of small man-powered utility carriers to carry stores and some crew-served weapons. The main carrier is envisaged as a bicycle with two wheels in tandem. The second is a golf buggey style with two side-by-side wheels that might also function as a weapons mount. So several questions.
    What types of man-powered cargo carriers been tested or used recently ? With what results ?
    Why aren’t wheeled man-powered cargo carriers already in widespread military use ?
    What characteristics are needed to make such carriers acceptable/useful ?
    Scale of issue: one per platoon weapon team, one per infantry section ?
    Would 50 to 75kg be a useful and readily manoeuvrable load size ?
    2-wheels in-tandem and/or side-by-side or something else ?

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    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    A better load carrier will simply result in greater loads...that we don't need in the first place.

    Now, take my combat load and cut it to half its weight from lighter materials and then we're talking!

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Yep. We have too much junk; 'technical solutions' to ameliorate poor training.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    A better load carrier will simply result in greater loads...that we don't need in the first place.
    We are spoiled and most of those "solutions" don't quite do the job...

    Though my guess would be some form of transport will prevail and training will not be improved.

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    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    The German infantry used one horse-drawn cart (a small one) per infantry platoon in WW2. There was no need to move it into combat itself, but it was a company-level asset and therefore brought quite close to the action.
    This kind of load carrying arrangement (=non-combat loads on trucks/APCs) looks still optimal to me unless we're talking about long-range patrols.

    For long range patrols over (mostly) wheel-compatible terrain I would have a look at working dogs. They can help as scout dogs (much superior senses), bolster morale, help security at night and at the same time pull a small cart. The latter is possible for soldiers as well, of course. We just don't like to do the job of working animals.
    A cart no heavier than what can be lifted over a wall by four men would likely be useful, especially for troops that carry especially heavy single loads (AT and mortar teams, for example).

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    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    M-gators were a common sight at the JRTC prior to 9-11 and even afterward until we made the formal switch to MREs for Iraq and secondarily for Afghanistan. The M-gator served the same purpose as the WWII Jeep and trailer and they work quite well.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    A cart no heavier than what can be lifted over a wall by four men would likely be useful, especially for troops that carry especially heavy single loads (AT and mortar teams, for example).
    The 1st Ranger Battalion found that useful in the Italian campaign.



    As did other units: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DN%26um%3D1
    Last edited by Rifleman; 11-22-2009 at 08:00 PM.
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    Default Manpack carts - looking good

    Just need a way for a narrow bicycle-style tire to be quickly replaced with a balloon-style tire when dealing with sand/muck. Make it out of lightweight aluminum, make it able to be disassembled for air assault or manpack, and again, keep it light.

    Some of my Canadian friends have told me of pulling sledges while wearing snowshoes, with 2 Soldiers pulling the sledge with over-the-shoulder traces, while a third pushes and steers.

    Tankersteve

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    Smile The Soldier's Load

    The greatest problem with the combat load today is the body armor. When you start with 45 lbs burden it is a quick trip to 30% or 50% of the porter's weight. Soldiers are not meant to be pack animals and when used as such are less effective at soldiering. The best part of training is realizing what looks good on paper doesnt work in reality. Two things are important here, 1)you can not train the average Soldier to be a SuperSoldier no more than you can train an attack dog to be an attack mule and 2) the carts or jeeps or iBattles are not likely to solve this. Likely just adding to the stuff Joe can break or lose. I have often joked with my battle's that "They" weigh you down so "They" know you can't run away. You always need about twice as many troops to do what half could do in better circumstances.

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    Default Bicycle

    How does one ride a bicycle in full battle rattle? Very carefully i would presume.

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    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    As I said before a (silent) mule or packhorse would be a good thing to have for territory in Afghanistan. It served my grandgrandfathers, grandfathers, father well but didn't make to me.

    I personally have pulled things up mountains on skies and snowshoes. Up to a certain degree of terrain, slope and weight skies are better. If I think about pulling that .... heavy part of a mountain howitzer on a 3000m + mountain to please a general hovering over with a helicpoter I still can feel the pain.

    Firn

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    Council Member reed11b's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Some of my Canadian friends have told me of pulling sledges while wearing snowshoes, with 2 Soldiers pulling the sledge with over-the-shoulder traces, while a third pushes and steers.

    Tankersteve
    Not just Canadians. At Ft. Richardson we had/have akio sleds as well. We cursed them from the bottoms of our airborne hearts btw.
    Reed
    Quote Originally Posted by sapperfitz82 View Post
    This truly is the bike helmet generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OfTheTroops View Post
    How does one ride a bicycle in full battle rattle? Very carefully i would presume.
    It's not too bad. Mainly have to use a shorter sling for the rifle.
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    Mountain Bikes are geared to achieve new heights!

    In the 20's through the 70's bikes were used to transport weapons and supplies in several wars and insurrections. And probably still do. With the popularity of off road mountain bikes, have some bright eyed troopers of the Ranger Regt. or the Airborne community brought this two wheeled mule forward for testing?

    The tires are a little skinny for beach assualts, but once off the sandy part perhaps the Marine Corps might consider them for machine gun section and 81mm mortar movers.

    A clever grunt who needs to move baseplate and tube with a dozen or more rounds on one bike frame and the A/Gunner with 50 more rounds on another might be able to stay closer to the sound of guns.

    I have relatives who used to wax poetic about the Flying Columns ability to move men and materials around Ireland by the dark of night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reed11b View Post
    Not just Canadians. At Ft. Richardson we had/have akio sleds as well. We cursed them from the bottoms of our airborne hearts btw.
    Reed
    I've pulled them at Ft. McCoy, Wisconsin and in the Italian Alps. I didn't like it any more than you.
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    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
    I've pulled them at Ft. McCoy, Wisconsin and in the Italian Alps. I didn't like it any more than you.
    Where in the Italian Alps?

    What about a bike cart like that one? Best if detachable for easy handpulling.


    Firn

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Mules and Llamas, and that's about it. Infantry walk. Men don't have wheels, so I can't see the point of limiting them to things with wheels. If you are on roads with carts, why not use vehicles??

    Try walking around the Southern Lebanon with something with wheels. 30-40cm step and trench obstacles, plus 40 degree slopes are routine.
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    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    The simple reason for wheels is
    a)stuff needs to move
    PLUS
    b) a wheel carries weight. The mechanic system itself supports the weight, you do not need to put any energy into the system to support the weight (as on legs, no matter whether biological or technical).

    This greater energy efficiency is a huge advantage over legs, and the reason why we move faster on bikes than on legs, for example: We spend our power on forward movement and almost nothing on supporting our own weight (only on the spine).


    That's why I make the compromise at something on wheels that's either meant for roads or meant to be crew-portable over obstacles (even walls).

    There's no universal solution anyway. You don't want to use mules in jungles where you need to create a path with a machete, for example.

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    I know wheels have many mechanical advantages. The problem is that wheels are the thin edge of wedge. They enable stupidity.

    Allowing infantry to carry more weight, by allowing wheels, means that they will be get even more overloaded. Man-packing is a simple and coherent method of forcing the argument back to basics, as is Mules or Llamas, or even well trained Hamsters.

    We want to try and avoid making doing stupid things possible, because history shows that Infantry Officers always overload their men - almost always because of stupidity, and a failure to ask the right question in the right context.

    I also submit that a well trained and well lead army does not have load carrying problem because it has already exercised the judgement necessary to avoid it.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Default its on the internet

    http://www.militarybikes.com/paratroopervid.html

    http://www.bikesatwork.com/

    just in case you thought no one made such non-sense.


    And no need to worry about overloading or wheels! we shall devise an overly complex machine to assist you

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0X1vyWU6bw
    Last edited by OfTheTroops; 11-25-2009 at 02:03 AM. Reason: add

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firn View Post
    Where in the Italian Alps?
    I don't remember the name of the nearest village (I'm suffering from a bad case of middle age) but I think it was considered part of the Tyrol. It might have been one of those areas that was sometimes Italy and sometimes Austria pre-WWII. I remember hearing people mention Folgoria. That's not where we were but I think Folgoria must have been in the same area.

    Anyway, the Airborne Battalion Combat Team went there from Vicenza to conduct winter training every year.
    Last edited by Rifleman; 11-25-2009 at 02:43 AM.
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