"MoveOn" to 5GW?

[selil]

I think since people think that fourth generation warfare is a decided (no it isn't) affair, then we've got to go out and discover the fifth generation. If I was going to place fifth generation warfare it would be firmly in the land of computer mediated warfare. At no other time in history have we had the capability of command, control, communication, and coordination. We often try and define cyber warfare as a limited engagement involving computers and the efficacious hooliganism of attacks within one of the three confidentiality, integrity, availability (CIA) triad.

I think if you look deeper the topic is much bigger and references a ground swell in adoption and adaption to strategies and abilities. Computers running UAV's, computers running Phalanx and other battle systems, IED sweeping robots (Roomba of the battle field), and so much more that didn't exist 25 years ago. Fifth generation warfare is not a simple information operation (IO) that might involve a political process. It is a ground swell and change in the active pursuit of kinetic and non-kinetic means of battle.

[Gian P Gentile]

I went to UC Berkeley and for a while even subscribed to the "Nation." Am I in trouble? I like Al Franken and do believe that Rush Limbaugh is a "big fat idiot." Am I to be investigated for subversion?

gian

[selil]

I went to UC Berkeley and for a while even subscribed to the "Nation." Am I in trouble? I like Al Franken and do believe that Rush Limbaugh is a "big fat idiot." Am I to be investigated for subversion?

gian

Uncle Joe McCarthy always said subversion would come through the Army... Do you own anything...... RED!!!!.......



ROTFLMAO...... <- Slangism not crypto islamofacism or judeo-christian zionism..... but totally a geekgasm.

[Ken White]

The mind boggles...

[Chris Albon]

To everyone:

As I bleeding-heart, San Francisco mega-lefty, let me officially deny that we have a vast international conspiracy.

To other lefties on the forum:

Ethay ickenchay owsknay aboutway ethay ovenway. Iway epeatray. Ethay ickenchay owsknay aboutway ethay ovenway. Informway Echay immediatelyway!

[Ken White]

your input, seriously and sincerely.

Can we now go back to being apolitical? Both sides could try a little harder to avoid that, plenty of places on the net that cater to it, even thrive on it.

Thanks.

[Watcher In The Middle]

Originally posted by MattC:

...but I just want to say this idea of MoveOn somehow trying to overthrow traditional values or practicing subversion of any kind is really kind of painful to read.

MoveOn may be extreme in their techniques (the Petraeus ad obviously was a pretty low point) but agenda-wise, it's difficult to consider them radical when they were clamoring for the end of a war that, just a few short months ago, was strongly opposed by 50% or more of the country. Their social and economic agenda, while liberal, is hardly "socialist" and anything smacking of a "leftist" conspiracy is so unbelievably outrageous that I have a hard time believing you're serious.

I pointed out the early posts on this topic to a Democratic activist friend of mine (opposite party from me), and after reading them, she eventually stopped laughing when she was gasping for air.....

Look, most of the Democratic party players out there aren't real impressed with moveon.org, and honestly more than a few of them have occasionally wondered if they aren't really a nefarious Republican plot to frustrate Democratic election objectives in 2008. Which methinks is pretty funny.

And btw, "overthrow traditional values" - whenever I hear that, it's just a typical political talking point.

It's stuff like this (from both sides) that drives the folks who are in the middle out of politics.

[Gian P Gentile]

Uncle Joe McCarthy always said subversion would come through the Army... Do you own anything...... RED!!!!........

Yeah, we bought our daughter a few years ago a cute little bright red VW beetle; you know, the kind that his the little flower vase next to the steering wheel for a flower. I like driving it; I especially liked driving it last year after getting back from Baghdad. I always made sure the flower was in the vase.

gian

[selil]

Yeah, we bought our daughter a few years ago a cute little bright red VW beetle; you know, the kind that his the little flower vase next to the steering wheel for a flower. I like driving it; I especially liked driving it last year after getting back from Baghdad. I always made sure the flower was in the vase.

gian

Oooh my daughter wants one of those. Did you get her the uber environmental friendly (high mpg) diesel or the uber sun friendly convertible?

Urp... I mean aren't they made by former fascists and horrible on American trade!!!!????

Anarchist political correctness is so dang tiring.

[SteveMetz]

I went to UC Berkeley and for a while even subscribed to the "Nation." Am I in trouble? I like Al Franken and do believe that Rush Limbaugh is a "big fat idiot." Am I to be investigated for subversion?

gian

My understanding was that you were already on the purge list. It was discussed at the last Neocon-Zionist meeting.

[Gian P Gentile]

My understanding was that you were already on the purge list. It was discussed at the last Neocon-Zionist meeting.

Right, Right; that is the thing that Ken White runs.

[Ken White]

Right, Right; that is the thing that Ken White runs.

Colonels outa trouble is So-o-o repetitive a thing as jobs go.

No, sir, you always start off on your LEFT foot. So it's left, right...

(Unless you're in the Old Guard, they walk funny. Not to mention at my age and on a pack of Pall Malls a day, I don't run anything or anywhere if it can be avoided... )

(Ron is correct, on reflection,us dinosaurs cannot be associated with any of this neo-stuff; we do Paleo and the paleo-er the better. Ergo, I have to be a PZPD -- which sounds like an old Soviet AP Mine??? ... )

[J Wolfsberger]

I went to UC Berkeley and for a while even subscribed to the "Nation." Am I in trouble? I like Al Franken and do believe that Rush Limbaugh is a "big fat idiot." Am I to be investigated for subversion?

gian

We'll discuss it at the next chapter meeting of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.

[Ratzel]

When I decided to use left-wing subversion as an example of 5GW, I made the assumption that most of the good folks who post here shared some common premises and historical understandings. I was wrong of course, and when I seen people talking of "McCarthyism" I had given up. I figured that there was no reason to go any further just as there would be no reason to teach calculus to those who hadn't learned the multiplication tables.

I then had a change of heart, as I could not accept the idea of otherwise well informed and objective thinkers being totally in the dark of this historical reality. It took me a while to decide how I would prepare for this lesson, but I decided on an interview with an ex-KGB officer. I think you'll find this interview to be informative and entertaining, which are two important aspects of learning new subjects.

I hope that by the end of the 3 part interview, you'll at least have some appreciation of what I'm talking about. I am familiar with the culture of this forum and will not be making a habit of discussing such things in the future.

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UKwc...eature=related

Particurally related to 5GW is in 2/3 when he speaks of the 4 steps of subverting the nation. If you can't bring yourself to watch it all, at least watch 2/3 and think of this in terms of 5GW.

[MattC86]

I'm going to do as Ken asks and simply "Move On," horrific pun sadly intended. We don't agree on this, we're not going to agree on this, so probably best for all concerned to find greener pastures.

Matt

[Ken White]

and I have no doubt there are a number of routine posters here who agree with you as well as a possibly similar number who do not. While your intentions were pure, the thread warped off, fairly predictably, into the political rather than on the 5GW effect.

There are other places on the internet for the firmly ideological or political discussion. Your decision to avoid such efforts in the future is wise and appreciated. It isn't possible to discuss warfare without some political elements intruding, no question -- but it is possible to do that without taking an overt political position and generating a lot of froth and little of practical substance pertinent to this Forum which concentrates on the practical aspects of warfighting.

Thanks to all -- and thanks, MattC.

[Ratzel]

and I have no doubt there are a number of routine posters here who agree with you as well as a possibly similar number who do not. While your intentions were pure, the thread warped off, fairly predictably, into the political rather than on the 5GW effect.

There are other places on the internet for the firmly ideological or political discussion. Your decision to avoid such efforts in the future is wise and appreciated. It isn't possible to discuss warfare without some political elements intruding, no question -- but it is possible to do that without taking an overt political position and generating a lot of froth and little of practical substance pertinent to this Forum which concentrates on the practical aspects of warfighting.

Thanks to all -- and thanks, MattC.

You weren't telling anyone to "drop it" while they were having fun at my expense. Why the change? I even suggested that we erase the thread when it was 10 posts old. I was very willing to "drop it" but everyone was having too much fun. So all I did by posting this interview was attempt to show the gallery that left-wing subversion of the West was a very real thing. And by doing so, possibly even getting the folks at this thread to think about my original inference. So yes, I'll "drop it" and keep to apolitical subjects only.

[Ratzel]

I think since people think that fourth generation warfare is a decided (no it isn't) affair, then we've got to go out and discover the fifth generation. If I was going to place fifth generation warfare it would be firmly in the land of computer mediated warfare. At no other time in history have we had the capability of command, control, communication, and coordination. We often try and define cyber warfare as a limited engagement involving computers and the efficacious hooliganism of attacks within one of the three confidentiality, integrity, availability (CIA) triad.

I think if you look deeper the topic is much bigger and references a ground swell in adoption and adaption to strategies and abilities. Computers running UAV's, computers running Phalanx and other battle systems, IED sweeping robots (Roomba of the battle field), and so much more that didn't exist 25 years ago. Fifth generation warfare is not a simple information operation (IO) that might involve a political process. It is a ground swell and change in the active pursuit of kinetic and non-kinetic means of battle.

I guess I should have just asked this in the first place. I first came across the concept of 5GW here:
http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2005/07...ation-war.html

Also here:http://www.dreaming5gw.com/2007/11/t...ategy.php#more

The authors' seemed to indicate that 5GW begins with some sort of conspiracy. The second article deals exclusively with left-wing 5GW strategy.

[JeffC]

I guess I should have just asked this in the first place. I first came across the concept of 5GW here:
http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2005/07...ation-war.html

Also here:http://www.dreaming5gw.com/2007/11/t...ategy.php#more

The authors' seemed to indicate that 5GW begins with some sort of conspiracy. The second article deals exclusively with left-wing 5GW strategy.

Did you check into who the authors are? I find that's usually a good starting point. Personally, I find Dan tdaxp a little creepy to read. And there's no profile that I can find at his blog, which is never a good sign.

[selil]

here is one discussion on the topic