Israeli-Arab Wars and Palestinian Population Displacement

[serviceman]

well Mr Owen, i am a very young 82 year old and remember well you did not give me facts about casualties this started after ww 1 when Lawence promised the land to Arabs then Balfour wanted the Jewish people to have a homeland and started pressing the league of nations for this Balfour never lived in the country and this is why i say to much out-side pressure is not good I know people who say that all the bombers were correct to recover their homes Personally i don't agree, and have spoken out on this. asked people to name one incident where Jewish forces retalilated until enought was enought

[jmm99]

OK, we now know that serviceman is a young 82 (roughly in the same vintage as Ken White), I'm a not so young 67 when I crawl out of bed in the morning, and Wilf is a handsome 46 (a mere babe, especially considering that our dads saw combat in the same theatre of war). And Schmedlap is a newly-born, even though he was probably 38 at 18.

Since age carries no particularly weight, we must look to the message and not the messenger. I can find all sorts of messages about Palestine-Israel before, during and after 1945-1948. E.g. (among many sites I've visited over the years), Palestine Remembered and The Jewish Agency for Israel. I've gone through both sites (the territorial nomenclature tells us their positions from the gitgo), with some "rigour" as Wilf might say. Compared to others here, my background in matters Palestinian and Israeli is minimal.

So, serviceman, what exactly are your points for discussion ? Take your time; please puntuate your sentences; and give us an organized presentation of your thesis.

Thanks in advance

Mike

PS: Schmedlap - your Moral Foundations Chart proves that you have a distinct adversion to causing harm (3.8 . Marct and JMM were at the lower end of that scale (2.0 and 2.3); explained in our cases by too much genetic input from warriors who fought each other at the Battle of the Windmill.

[William F. Owen]

well Mr Owen, i am a very young 82 year old and remember well you did not give me facts about casualties this started after ww 1 when Lawence promised the land to Arabs then Balfour wanted the Jewish people to have a homeland and started pressing the league of nations for this

Serviceman, with all due respect to your age and involvement, it actually all started when Theodore Hertzl and others created the political movement to re-establish the State of Israel.
Britain did not create the modern State of Israel. The UN did, and did so in the full expectation that the nation would cease to exist within one or two years.

My point of caution to you is, that arguing about the population movements that occurred as a result of military action in 1947-49 based on personal involvement, doesn't actually help - This long running debate is mostly fact and history free.

Mazal Tov.

[serviceman]

think troubles began in June 1920 when Herbert Samuel was appointed as be high commissioner in Palestine on June 30th 1920, this was not talen well by Arabs. Samuel was first Jew to govern Palestine for 2000 years. We are well aware that the U.N.s created the stste of Isreal, Britain held the Mandate for 17/18 years granted by league of natione. In 1946 britain told U.N.s they would give up mandate in 1948, this was due to American pressure on this country to allow refugees from camps to enter the then Palestine. At no time have i menitioned people being forced to move, people moved out on advice of village headmen

If you are interested i was stationed at Neuhardof and Khayat Beach, which is what 10/12 miles down coast from Haifa

[rini]

Hello

Are you Israeli or do you just live in Israel for professional or ideological reasons? I get the feeling that you weren't born in Israel or Jewish, but have adopted zionist theories and ideologies throughout your life? would this be correct?

Not that it makes much difference, it's just that you say that your current family ... ranges from Jewish terrorists to Brit Arabists...which is a tad out of the ordinary.

It is refreshing to hear your views from someone who was not born into them, as I believe.

rini e.

Serviceman,

I live in Israel. My current family spans those held in British prisons, as Jewish Terrorists, to those British Arabists who opposed the creation of the modern state of Israel - so please don't assume you have some superior knowledge of the issues. It ain't true and it doesn't help.

While I agree with some of your observations, you're being a bit too black and white. For example, Beit-Shean valley was pretty cleared "pre-emptively" as opposed to true "self-defence." - and you can run out breath arguing about Deir-Yassin, and a few other forgotten villages.

They have three versions of history here in Israel. "Ours, yours and theirs."

[jmm99]

please introduce yourself before asking Wilf to post his family history - and be prepared to supply your own.

Thanks in advance,

Mike

[Tom Odom]

please introduce yourself before asking Wilf to post his family history - and be prepared to supply your own.

Thanks in advance,

Mike

To echo what Mike said, you can introduce yourself here

Thanks

Tom

Moderator

[serviceman]

rini., I am a Scotsman who served his country in Palestine before end of the mandate in 1948, my family are not military and never served at any time in armed forces. Left that country in June 1948 for good. I have never adopted any theories, i was there to do a job and did it. that was to move stores from same

[Gareth Davies]

Aren't we missing the point? History is of course important but the here and now is what needs to be resolved.

[Ken White]

is the main impediment to a resolution of the situation -- not that anything done here is likely to resolve much of anything...

[Schmedlap]

Aren't we missing the point? History is of course important but the here and now is what needs to be resolved.

Are you trying to be rational in a discussion about Israel and Palestine? There's your mistake.

[Gareth Davies]

is the main impediment to a resolution of the situation -- not that anything done here is likely to resolve much of anything...

I disagree. Changing attitudes can be achieved on here and that can have a significant impact which will help resolution.

[William F. Owen]

I disagree. Changing attitudes can be achieved on here and that can have a significant impact which will help resolution.

Sorry, but I know from bitter experience that explaining the history to folk should help, but it rarely if ever does. As I have said before the arguments in the Middle East are usually arguments over the story history tells. Even the archeological record here is deeply political.

There are 3 histories.

• Yours
• Ours
• Theirs

[Ken White]

...Changing attitudes can be achieved on here and that can have a significant impact which will help resolution. (emphasis added / kw)

Good luck with that...

[serviceman]

fully agree with Ken. White on this

( Changing attitudes can be achieved here ) a bit of give and take could be in order

[Gareth Davies]

Yes, give and take is exactly what is needed. The Israelis should give the West Bank back to the Palestinians and take themselves back to the west of the 1967 border.

[j37]

There's a very good book detailing American involvement in the Arab-Israeli conflict called Peace Process by William B. Quandt. I'm in the process of finishing it for a class that I'm currently taking. I have three chapters or so to go.

I would have to say that the closest this conflict has been to ending would have been during the 90s and the Oslo Accords. I wouldn't expect the conflict to end until those conditions occur again.

[82redleg]

Yes, give and take is exactly what is needed. The Israelis should give the West Bank back to the Palestinians and take themselves back to the west of the 1967 border.

WHY?

From where I sit- the history looks like this.

Israel is established, as promised by the west, belatedly, in response to the Holocaust.

The Arab states tell the Palestinians to leave (so they aren't in the way of the second Holocaust) and attack Israel. Despite their primary malefactors being thei Arab gov'ts, the Palestinians leave, hoping to take advantage of the development the Jews have accomplished once they are all dead.

Oops, the Arabs fail miserably and Israel survives.

The Arabs attack several (3, 4) more times, with generally the same results. Israel expands.

Israel gives back some land, in hope of peace- good luck with that. Arabs don't want peace, they want to kill Jews.

Look at all the conflicts in the world today- the vast majority are between Islam and someone else. It pains me to say it, but we are going to either:
1- wipe out Islam
2- force a drastic change in Islam (it may become a peaceful religion, but it is NOT a religion of peace at this time)
3- fight forever with half measures.
4- surrender and accept dhimmi-tude.

I'm not comfortable with any of these choices, but I don't see another one.

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

this started after ww 1 when Lawence promised the land to Arabs

that TEL had absolutely no authority from London to "promise" anything to the specific group of "Arabs" to whom he was seconded, outside of arms and support as it pertained to Allenby's Palestine campaign.

While TEL certainly was instrumental in getting Fisal at least a small role in the Versailles talks, the Sykes-Picot agreement trumped much of his father Hussien wanted in regards to territorial gains. But that's realpolitik for you.

Also, IMO "Arab" is a very nebulous term to use when making a general argument about the ME since Arab unity is far far from unified.

Just sayin...

[AmericanPride]

Israel is established, as promised by the west, belatedly, in response to the Holocaust.

What obligation did the "West" have in creating Israel? And why does the Nazi perpetrated genocide ennoble the Jewish population with perceived priveleges not granted to other victims of genocide (i.e. a new state)? Why haven't other victims of the Nazi genocide (homosexuals and Romani, for example) been given a state yet?

The Arab states tell the Palestinians to leave

Population displacement is a feature in nearly all modern conflict as a consequence of military offensives, atrocities and transfers, the rumor mill, among other things. How is this conflict an exception and the Arabs solely responsible for the displacement of 300,000 persons?

(so they aren't in the way of the second Holocaust)

The document submitted by the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States to the United Nations detailing the causes of the Arab intervention makes no mention of perpetrating another genocide against the Jewish people.

The Arabs attack several (3, 4) more times, with generally the same results. Israel expands.

You forgot to mention that Israel also attacked the Arabs on several occasions, and that Jewish partians actively targeted and killed Arabs, Brits, and other foreign officials since before Israel even became a state. On that list of victims of Jewish (Israeli? Zionist?) terrorism is a high-ranking Swiss diplomat charged with mediating the conflict. And it's only the Arabs that don't want peace?

Arabs don't want peace, they want to kill Jews.

Is that why Jordan and Egypt made peace with Israel? Is that why the League of Arab States unanimously passed a resolution outlining their terms for peace? I'd like to see evidence that the Arab population is somehow filled with some kind of natural bloodlust to murder and maim Jews.

Look at all the conflicts in the world today- the vast majority are between Islam and someone else.

Islam is not a unitary actor so your statement is inaccurate and misleading.