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Thread: Anthropology (catch all)

  1. #101
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi John,

    Quote Originally Posted by John T. Fishel View Post
    Is an antropologist (or other social scientist) who joins the Clandestine Service of his country unethical?
    In a word, "No". I would say that there are inherent "ethical dangers" inherent for an Anthropologist or anyone else for that matter, who has internalized the verstehen methodology acting as a covert operative, but I certainly wold not say that it is "inherently" and absolutely unethical. I would say that the danger of becoming affected by covert actions is much higher than by acting solely as an analyst, but not that it is an absolute, 1:1 equation.

    Quote Originally Posted by John T. Fishel View Post
    Just because I have a PhD doesn't mean that I define myself always and for all time as an academic. Professionally, I have been a military officer, an intelligence officer, an academic, and a consultant - some of those during the same time periods (interesting what a Reserve Officer can do). The ethical issue, for me, is one of role.
    I totally agree, John. Look, one of the reasons why I use this rather oddball definition of morality and ethics is because I act in so many different roles that, after a while, they are like masks in a play. I either am / have been / or have acted as a professional academic, actor, singer, career counsellor, priest, game designer, market researcher and social worker.

    Given the disparity of professional roles that both of us have used at one or more times in our lives, I think we can probably both agree that "code of ethics" tend to be limited to singular professions. What is "ethical" for a law enforcement officer may be "unethical" for an academic researcher, and vice versa (one of my students got caught in that particular one). This is why I shifted my definition of "ethics" to "right action in accordance with natural law" (okay, Buddhist, I know, but it was the best model I could come up with).

    So, and getting back to your original question, I am more concerned with the effects of action on the, for want of a better term, "spiritual well being" of the individual than I am with the specifics of any particular action per se.

    Quote Originally Posted by John T. Fishel View Post
    But what if, in the course of my research, I discover information that would be both useful and of interest to my and the host government - and, it would be helpful to society to see that the governments in question received that information. Should I report it or not? In the real world case - which was the diversion of legal coca into the illegal drug trade - I saw no ethical problem with reporting it so long as I protected my sources, which I did. Some might well disagree with my choice but it seemed the ethical one to me.
    And here is where I find myself in an absolute, categorical disagreement with the position of Gusterson and Price. I would, in all probability, have done exactly the same thing as you. For me, it is not a question of "professional ethics" ("morality" in my terminology), it is a question of true ethics - what must I do, as a competent and self-aware individual in order not to "destroy my soul"?

    Maybe I have internalized too many Protestant concepts, despite going to an Ursuline convent for school , but I hold, as a categorical position, that each individual must ultimately stand before their God(s) and account for their actions. One corollary of this is that I, as an individual, cannot rely on the judgement of anyone else to define what I consider to be "ethical". Another corollary of this is that if I do not ask for advice from "those who know", then I am a fool, and the final corollary is, IMHO, best stated by Cromwell - "Brethren, I beseach ye in the bowels of Christ to consider that ye may be wrong"!

    In short, I believe that "ethics" are too important to the individual to hand them over to the control of a group.

    Quote Originally Posted by John T. Fishel View Post
    In other cases, I have used my academic skills to support my other roles but I have not tried to say I was in an academic role at the time, rather I was in one of my other professional roles. For those of us on all sides of this issue who are blogging away, clearly we are using our academic and other training to make points and enter the debate. Are any of us being unethical - including David Price? I think not. And BTW, Price and Gusterson are to be commended for their willingness to join this debate on what to them must seem "hostile ground."
    John, I agree totally with that! Despite my disagreements with David, I certainly would agree that he is acting in a manner that is within the moral boundary of established discourse. Do I consider him to be "unethical"? No, not at all. I truly believe that he is answering a "calling", despite the fact that I disagree with his position. I would never demand that he or Hugh Gusterson accept my position - that, to my mind, would be unethical. I can, and will, however, demand that they grant me the same courtesy.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  2. #102
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Steve,

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    Doesn't this also apply to students who are locked through academic, financial and occasionally emotional reasons into working for professors who happen to be on their graduate advisory committee?
    Yes, it does. Despite Stans' comments about Greg (), the pattern is one of "unequal power relations" - regardless of whether that is with an agency or an individual. The real question, to my mind, is how this relationship is defined: is it one which encourages the student to grow or one that stunts their growth?). To my mind, these unequal relationships will always exist, and to attempt to deny their inevitability is either an exercise in ideological BS or an act that indicates an incipient psychotic break with reality. If absolutely nothing else, there is always the parent-child relationship. I would love to see Hugh and David try to argue that such a "debt bondage" relationship doesn't exist at the parent-child level!

    Having said that, I would also recommend that they take a look at the introduction to the second edition of Emile Durkeim's Division of Labor in Society which deals with "intermediate structures" - i.e. organizations that stand between the individual and the state (yes, David, I lecture on Durkheim in my Introduction to Anthropology courses - consider his effects on the thinking of Radcliffe-Brown and Malinowski, to say nothing of Mary Douglas it is appropriate).

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
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  3. #103
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi stan,

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    I read the final hearing after 'my' Canadian/almost U.S. Army candidate/Spy Student code-named 'Greg' revealed the ugly truth about studying under Doctor T.
    Damn! He told you?!? I hope he didn't mention the whips .

    Seriously, though, Greg is a good case in point on "applied ethics" (and I know he monitors SWC so maybe he can jump in here!). When dealing with Greg, I have always tried to consider him as an individual. Yeah, I have berated him on some of the "c*^p" he has produced, but I have also taken him off on fieldwork practicums so that he can understand the reality of what it is like to do fieldwork.

    And Stan, let's do a bit of a correction on your characterization of Greg - he's not and incipient "Spy Student" - he's just interested in getting into the arms trade !

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Marc was later cleared...he never took a Canadian 'nano' quarter for the Anthro lessons provided
    True, although he has bought a few beers (okay, more than a few) .

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
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  4. #104
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default ignorance, but slightly smarter !

    Hey Marc !
    Honestly, I thought Steve was pullin' a 'Tom or RTK' to see if I would spin up (for lack of better terms), and in a feeble attempt to release tension herein, it became 'Kita Kidogo' time (where did Bill get that Bravo Sierra from?).

    Back to reality for just a second, PRISP candidates are not fledglings barely making it with less than admirable moral qualities and questionable pasts, AND hopeless futures. The USG no longer doles out scholarship funds for potential (inept and introvert) spies that can’t communicate with other human beings…IMHO….doh !

    Regards, Stan

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Hi stan,



    Damn! He told you?!? I hope he didn't mention the whips .

    Seriously, though, Greg is a good case in point on "applied ethics" (and I know he monitors SWC so maybe he can jump in here!). When dealing with Greg, I have always tried to consider him as an individual. Yeah, I have berated him on some of the "c*^p" he has produced, but I have also taken him off on fieldwork practicums so that he can understand the reality of what it is like to do fieldwork.

    And Stan, let's do a bit of a correction on your characterization of Greg - he's not and incipient "Spy Student" - he's just interested in getting into the arms trade !



    True, although he has bought a few beers (okay, more than a few) .

    Marc

  5. #105
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John T. Fishel View Post
    .....The ethical issue, for me, is one of role. As a scholarly researcher I have to be open and transparent with both the subjects of my research and my discipline......


    In other cases, I have used my academic skills to support my other roles but I have not tried to say I was in an academic role at the time, rather I was in one of my other professional roles. ....
    It must be a social science thing this open and transparent stuff. In technology if I'm working on the next great thing I patent it, hide it, and only publish about the most general factors of it.... I can't imagine the Manhattan project as open and transparent...
    Sam Liles
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  6. #106
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    Default What a day of agreement!

    Hi Marc,

    D'accord - in all you have said. Except maybe the ethics of accepting a few beers ... you should have hit him up for the meal too

    Cheers

    John

  7. #107
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John T. Fishel View Post
    D'accord - in all you have said. Except maybe the ethics of accepting a few beers ... you should have hit him up for the meal too
    We trade off on dinners .

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  8. #108
    Small Wars Journal SWJED's Avatar
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    Default The Dangerous Militarisation of Anthropology

    Well damn, Dr. Marc heads off to Europe and those guys / girls at antropologi.info go and post this:

    The Dangerous Militarisation of Anthropology

    On 15 December 2006 the US Army released a new counterinsurgency manual, FM 3-24. At least one anthropologist played a role in preparing the 282-page document: Montgomery McFate. Anthropological knowledge is even considered as more important than bombs: Military generals call for for "culturally informed occupation" and ‘culture-centric warfare’. But this development undermines and endangers the work of anthropologists and will end up harming the entire discipline, Roberto J. González and David Price write in the June issue of Anthropology Today (not yet published)...

    What are the consequences of anthropologists engaging in counterinsurgency work? It's obvious that it both undermines and endangers the work of anthropologists and the life of their families and informants: It is plausible, Gonzales argues, that ‘once Thai peasants or Somali clansmen learn that some anthropologists are secretly working for the US government, they begin to suspect all other anthropologists. Fieldwork will be a lot more dangerous...

  9. #109
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    What else can I say but....

    If they're using "informants" it's obvious that they're up to something shady to begin with. With all that cultural subversion going on maybe someone should write a counterpiece called "The Dangerous Anthropologization of the Military" and how we're all going to "go native" and live in strange vine-covered compounds at the end of rivers with Dennis Hopper taking pictures of us while we write bad poetry and mutter "the horror" over and over again....

    Sorry...seemed like the only immediate response to this piece. Maybe Marc will have something to say once he gets back in-theater.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

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    Anthropologists have been used in the first world war and the vietnam war by the Americans. Not to mention in South America. As well Ruth Benedict was contracted to research Japan during ww2.

    It does undermine anthropologists everywhere. As well I have read about programs in place in the US where you get your anthropology degree paid for if you work for the government after (this was a few years ago so the details escape me).

  11. #111
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    Default See MarcT's article in Vol 7 of the mag

    Hi FL--

    You need to look at MarcT's article in Vol 7 of the mag and the reply to it in Vol 8. Then go to the 2 threads generated for a more complete picture. Your comment is correct but it is amplified in those locations.

    Cheers

    JohnT

  12. #112
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    Cool Ain't academics wonderful?

    Academics are so much fun, especially social scientists, and among them, anthropologists. Some of them really are paranoid. They just know the military, government, CIA, industrial complex is out to get them. Not too bright though: don't they realize that the real power is now in the hands of the DNI? And he's just waiting to pounce on any naive and unsuspecting anthro grad student with MONEY while he gets his PhD in exchange for going to work for one of the DNI's community members as an analyst where he will be paid better than in academia and have as many or more opportunities for research. Oh, he won't be discouraged from doing a little adjunct work at the universities in the DC area, either.

    Sounds just like a real raw deal to me!

  13. #113
    Small Wars Journal SWJED's Avatar
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    Default Related SWJ and SWC Links

    SWJ Magazine - Why Dr. Johnny Won't Go to War by Marc W.D. Tyrrell

    SWJ Magazine - Reconsidering "Why Dr. Johnny Won't Go to War" by Hugh Gusterson and David H. Price.

    SWJ Comment via e-mail - The Response to the Response by Marc W.D. Tyrrell

    SWC Thread - Comments on Marc T's article in Vol 7

    SWC Thread - SWJ Mag vol 8 - Reconsidering "Why Dr. Johnny Won't Go to War"

  14. #114
    Council Member Van's Avatar
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    Default We're supposed to be surprised?

    "Scientific" researchers travelling abroad have been in the employ of governments as long as there have been "scientific" researchers, and even before they were "scientific". Didn't Lewis and Clark have intelligence collection tasks from the government? Early surveyors were also scientists, but today we're open about it and admit that the mapping agency of the government, the National Geospacial Intelligence Agency is part of the intelligence community.

    This sort of thing is how the British Empire got by with such a ridiculously small formal intelligence office.

    The idea that "scientific" researchers work only for an academic institution, or private corporation is relatively new.

    Now, while it is fashionable in academia to voice off against anything the U.S. government does, were the anthropologists in question directed/employed to do these things, did they volunteer, or did the U.S.G. make use of research that had been done already for academic reasons?

    The cynic in me has to ask: is there really a problem, or is there a bunch of Anthropology grad students who just realized that to do field work, they'd be seperated from comprehensive medical care, the internet, flush toilets, health inspected restaurants, etc, and were looking for an excuse to stay at their nice comfy university? (I know I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but how many of y'all were thinking it?)
    Last edited by Van; 05-29-2007 at 12:09 PM. Reason: typo

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    Default Bone Diggers

    - all I know is for years there wasn't a problem for many Anthros to dig up Native burial sites in the name of Science and despite the throes of conscience during the time of Project Camelot in the 1960s, the practice of violating burial sites continued for some time. Anthros still retain the right to possess Native bones that are unearthed. I know of a case of Native grave robbery in Kentucky and when a local Native organization requested the bones be returned so a ceremony could be done and the ancestor be returned to earth, they were denied access because the ancestor's tribe could not be identified, hence no member of the organization could claim rights of heritage and cultural affiliation. It took the landowners and their attorney asserting the rights of property to get him back and given to the Natives for a return to earth ceremony. Anthros are far from being pristine and their professional ethics are as perforated as the next. Issues of site interpretation, plagarism, slanted questionaires, informed consent, data manipulation via direct intervention rear their ugly heads on a regular basis. Social advocacy is fine and dandy as long as it is PC and working with indigenous forces visa-via the US military is not at all PC.

  16. #116
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Cool The Horror

    If they're using "informants" it's obvious that they're up to something shady to begin with. With all that cultural subversion going on maybe someone should write a counterpiece called "The Dangerous Anthropologization of the Military" and how we're all going to "go native" and live in strange vine-covered compounds at the end of rivers with Dennis Hopper taking pictures of us while we write bad poetry and mutter "the horror" over and over again....
    Steve,

    Stan and I already did that. My poetry was good; Stan's singing was another matter.

    Best

    Tom

  17. #117
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FascistLibertarian View Post
    Anthropologists have been used in the first world war and the vietnam war by the Americans. Not to mention in South America. As well Ruth Benedict was contracted to research Japan during ww2.

    It does undermine anthropologists everywhere. As well I have read about programs in place in the US where you get your anthropology degree paid for if you work for the government after (this was a few years ago so the details escape me).
    Yet no one forces them to do that work, or to accept government financial aid (especially since the part about working for the government once one graduates from college is NOT hidden in the fine print or anything else). It seems to me that this policy is intended more to restrict the professional and research opportunities available to interested anthropologists.

    Restricting who people can work for based on ideology? Isn't that rather against the concept of academic freedom?

    (just had to toss that one out there...)

    And Goesh makes some good points about the fluidity of ethical accountability within the safety of the ivory tower. And no flames coming from me, Van. I think some of 'em might have gotten ticked off when they found out that they might actually have to DO something for that government money...
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

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    SWJED - thanks
    goesh - I agree anthropology and anthropologists have done some horrible things. However I disagree that this is relevant to the current issue under discussion.
    Van-
    The cynic in me has to ask: is there really a problem, or is there a bunch of Anthropology grad students who just realized that to do field work, they'd be separated from comprehensive medical care, the internet, flush toilets, health inspected restaurants, etc, and were looking for an excuse to stay at their nice comfy university? (I know I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but how many of y'all were thinking it?)
    To become an Anthro. Prof. you would need to do some serious fieldwork. Where you do it is your choice (one of my fav. anthropologists did his fieldwork with the Vice Lords in 1960's Chicago, another did his with crack dealers in Harlem).

    Steve Blair
    Oh I have nothing against people getting anthropology degrees and going to work for the US government or getting funding from the government.
    What I do have a problem with is how certain Anthropologists acted during Vietnam. My understanding of this is limited so I could be wrong but what I think happened is:
    They worked for the US gov't but told no one (neither the uni's nor their informants). In their fieldwork they figured out specifically and generally who should be high priority anti-communist targets and then the US Military went in and killed those specific people and general people who fit the profile. If they want to do this fine, but they should do it as private citizens not by using their unis and the AAA as a shield.
    I believe it is still a matter of controversy as to which anthrologists in S.E. Asia during Vietnam did what and many people still have clouds over their heads.

    As for the program to send students through school, regardless of if I am for or against it I think the US Gov't did a horrible job on PR and selling it in an intelligent manner. They could also have made a statement about how the students would not spy on the profs.

  19. #119
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Most American academics work for the federal agencies at some level. Whether they admit it or not. All state schools are well "state" schools. Their autonomy is regulated usually by the legislature of the state and a board or regents/governors.

    Even more importantly in the United States the principle and primary funding agency is the National Science Foundation (NSF). NSF is a competitive federally funded program. With major notable exceptions like Lilly, Macarthur, Carnegie, etc. few if any private agencies fund academics who aren't working for them directly.

    Almost all of my external funding is from NSF, NSA, DOD, DOJ, NIJ and really few of my funding dollars are from NSF directly. I do have a tidy no strings attached grand from CISCO for $120K but they were just being nice to me when I started my laboratory.

    Personally I've been on a grant seeking/funding hiatus (not a good choice professionally but rewarding personally) as getting the PhD (75% funded by my University, 24% funded by NSA/DOD, 1% by me) is more important for my goals as University faculty.

    It is interesting that a doctorate is not required for tenure but funding is required. My choice (knowingly putting myself at risk for continued employment) was to get the doctorate. The drive in academia for funding is something called salary savings. You buy back your salary and are given "release" time to do "research" and they fill the "release" time up with committee assignments and grunt work.

    I really enjoy research and as I learn more about my field of study my research questions get more and more interesting. I don't really know what those social science, history, anthropologists do for research. All I need is a bunch of computers and some victims (I mean students) to get my research done.
    Sam Liles
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  20. #120
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FascistLibertarian View Post
    As for the program to send students through school, regardless of if I am for or against it I think the US Gov't did a horrible job on PR and selling it in an intelligent manner. They could also have made a statement about how the students would not spy on the profs.
    Now would the statement really have mattered? There's a strong segment in academia that wouldn't believe it anyhow. No matter how it was presented (and there are certainly always aspects that could have been handled differently), some would still claim that it was "government-funded spying on free intellectuals."

    With your Vietnam story, please name the timeframe and location if at all possible. That might help us narrow down the validity of the story.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

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