Are snipers and recon still valid in infantry battalions?

[82redleg]

Proposition:
Standardize ALL mounted recon platoons at 10 x vehicles.

IBCT Recon SQDN mounted troops utilize HMMWVs.

SBCT RSTA SQDN uses 1 x M1127 troop (3 x 10) plus 2 x HMMWV troops.

SBCT IN BN uses 1 x M1127 platoon.

HBCT ARS (not really an ARS anymore, but anyway) uses 3 x M1127 troops (3 x 10).

HBCT CAB uses 1 x M3 platoon.

Alternatively, we can go back to the mixed troops from the ACR, LCR and DIV CAV- each recon troop has 2 x recon PLTs (10 vehicles now, instead of 6) and 2 platoons of tanks/MGS/TOW HMMWV. The organization of all troops (and platoons) is the same. The difference is the system.

Rough math (I'm sure TAH will correct me) tells me that we can get the force structure personnel (not sure about the systems, but that should be doable, too) from the overhead (HHCs, CO HQs) of the HBCTs we have to reduce to put 3 CABs in each HBCT, with requisite CS/CSS elements (FA Btrys, EN PLTs, FSCs, etc).

[TAH]

Proposition:
Standardize ALL mounted recon platoons at 10 x vehicles.

IBCT Recon SQDN mounted troops utilize HMMWVs.

SBCT RSTA SQDN uses 1 x M1127 troop (3 x 10) plus 2 x HMMWV troops.

SBCT IN BN uses 1 x M1127 platoon.

HBCT ARS (not really an ARS anymore, but anyway) uses 3 x M1127 troops (3 x 10).

HBCT CAB uses 1 x M3 platoon.

Alternatively, we can go back to the mixed troops from the ACR, LCR and DIV CAV- each recon troop has 2 x recon PLTs (10 vehicles now, instead of 6) and 2 platoons of tanks/MGS/TOW HMMWV. The organization of all troops (and platoons) is the same. The difference is the system.

Rough math (I'm sure TAH will correct me) tells me that we can get the force structure personnel (not sure about the systems, but that should be doable, too) from the overhead (HHCs, CO HQs) of the HBCTs we have to reduce to put 3 CABs in each HBCT, with requisite CS/CSS elements (FA Btrys, EN PLTs, FSCs, etc).

So now I get to be the "Math Nazi"

The math does got two ways personnel and vehicles.

A 10-vehicle platoon would need as a minimum 30 Soldiers (pretty much the recent standard) I am more inclined to standarize at 6 vehicle platoons.

Knox was/is pushing 36-man scout/recon platoons.

6 CFVs = 6 fully manned vehicles + 18 dismounts spread across two or three sections.

6 M1127 RVs = 6 fully manned vehicles + 18-24 dismounts spread across two-three sections.

6 HMMWVs (or JLTV in the future) = 6 fully manned vehicles + 12 dismounts and 6 extras as there is no more room in the HMMWV (four inside and one up top).

I favor the single function platoon inside a mixed troop so 2 scout platoons = 2 "gun" platoons works for me.

By adding the "Gun" platform you get addiotional capability as opposed to just more of the same.

[82redleg]

So now I get to be the "Math Nazi"

OK, OK, I'll do it myself I must depreciate my math-in-public abilities in advance, so I may mess up some multiplication .

HBCT:
Current ARS Recon Troop is 93 pax, 36 in each PLT. Increasing to a 10 x M3 platoon increases 14/PLT, 28 per troop, and 2 tank platoons are an additional 28 pax per troop, so 56 pax, 5 M3 and 8 M1 x 3 troops = 168 pax, 15 M3 and 24 M1
Same 14 pax and 5 x M3 in each CAB scout platoon equals additional 28 pax and 10 M3 in each CAB = a total of 196 pax, 25 M3 and 24 M1 per HBCT.

SBCT:
Current RSTA Recon Troop is 3 platoons x 27 pax + 4 M1127 RVs. Conversion to 2 PLTs x 10 M1127 + 50 pax / PLT = 8 M1127 + 19 pax increase/ troop x 3 troops = 24 M1127 + 57 pax / SQDN.
4 MGS + 12 pax / PLT x 6 platoons (2/troop) = 24 MGS and 72 pax = net increase of 24 MGS, 24 RVs and 129 pax in the SQDN
Current IN BN Scout PLT is 24 pax + 4 RVs- same increase to 50 pax and 10 RVs is 6 RVs + 26 pax/PLT x 3 PLTs (1/ IN BN) = 72 pax + 18 RVs.
Total of 201 pax, 24 MGS and 42 RVs per SBCT.

IBCT:
Current RS Recon Troop is 3 PLTs x 6 HMMWV + 24 pax = 18 HMMWV + 72 pax/troop. Conversion to 2 PLTs x 10 HMMWV + 40 pax = increase of 2 HMMWV + 8 pax/ troop x 2 troops = 4 HMMWV + 16 pax / SQDN
Addition of 4 TOW PLTs x 4 HMMWV + 12 pax/ PLT = 16 HMMWV + 48 pax / SQDN
Total of 20 HMMWV + 64 pax per IBCT.

[TAH]

OK, OK, I'll do it myself I must depreciate my math-in-public abilities in advance, so I may mess up some multiplication .

HBCT:
Current ARS Recon Troop is 93 pax, 36 in each PLT. Increasing to a 10 x M3 platoon increases 14/PLT, 28 per troop, and 2 tank platoons are an additional 28 pax per troop, so 56 pax, 5 M3 and 8 M1 x 3 troops = 168 pax, 15 M3 and 24 M1
Same 14 pax and 5 x M3 in each CAB scout platoon equals additional 28 pax and 10 M3 in each CAB = a total of 196 pax, 25 M3 and 24 M1 per HBCT.

SBCT:
Current RSTA Recon Troop is 3 platoons x 27 pax + 4 M1127 RVs. Conversion to 2 PLTs x 10 M1127 + 50 pax / PLT = 8 M1127 + 19 pax increase/ troop x 3 troops = 24 M1127 + 57 pax / SQDN.
4 MGS + 12 pax / PLT x 6 platoons (2/troop) = 24 MGS and 72 pax = net increase of 24 MGS, 24 RVs and 129 pax in the SQDN
Current IN BN Scout PLT is 24 pax + 4 RVs- same increase to 50 pax and 10 RVs is 6 RVs + 26 pax/PLT x 3 PLTs (1/ IN BN) = 72 pax + 18 RVs.
Total of 201 pax, 24 MGS and 42 RVs per SBCT.

IBCT:
Current RS Recon Troop is 3 PLTs x 6 HMMWV + 24 pax = 18 HMMWV + 72 pax/troop. Conversion to 2 PLTs x 10 HMMWV + 40 pax = increase of 2 HMMWV + 8 pax/ troop x 2 troops = 4 HMMWV + 16 pax / SQDN
Addition of 4 TOW PLTs x 4 HMMWV + 12 pax/ PLT = 16 HMMWV + 48 pax / SQDN
Total of 20 HMMWV + 64 pax per IBCT.

Pencils Down.

HBCT recon is a total of 8 platoons of 3 CFVs, 5 HMMWVs & 36 PAX each for a total across the BCT of 24 CFVs, 40 HMMWVs and 288 PAX.

As I understand your HBCT proposal this would go to:

8 platoons of 10 CFVs and 50 PAX each (80 CFVs + 400 PAX) plus
6 platoons of 4 tanks and 16 PAX each (24 tanks and 96 PAX)

For an increase across the BCT of 56 CFVs + 24 Tanks + 208 PAX.

The CFVs and tanks are a one time buy, but that number of an increase probably traslates to more supporters also. The real kick is the 208 PAX increase. Across the force of 25 HBCTs thats 5200 more Soldiers, an increase over more that a full BCT.

Drop 100 CFVs back to 6 and the increase in CFVs in still 24 and PAX is just the 96 tankers. Still 2400 PAX total (2/3s of a BCT)

SBCT recon is currently 12 platoons of 4 M1127 RVs and 27 PAX for a total of 48 RVs and 324 PAX. Reducing the number of platoons to 9 of 10 RVs & 50 PAX plus 6 platoons of 4 MGS & 12 PAX results in 90 RVs (an increase of 52) 24 MGS and increase of 24 and 450 scouts and 72 MGS "Tankers" for 522 and increase of 198 PAX per SBCT or 1386 PAX (about 1/3 of an SBCT).

Reducing SBCT Scout platoons to 6 RVs of 36 PAX equals 9X6 Rvs for 54, 9X36 for 324 PAX. Reducing MGS to 3/platoon equals 18 MGS and 54 PAX for a total increase per SBCT of 6 RVs, 18 MGS & 54 PAX.

I have been kicking around a re-structured SBCT of only two Infantry Battalions but with four versus 3 line companies and a re-orged SBCT ARS of 3 recon Troops (2X2 RV & MGS) and a infantry Company. Brings SBCT structurely inline with the HBCT and IBCT model, I use the remaining Bn HQs to form the SBCT Special Troops Bn of the engineers, MICO, Signal Co, Anti-tank company, again to simplify the overall BCT structures.

never looked at the IBCT but the numbers look about right.

Here, we have the luxury of unlimited bugets and no limiting manpower caps. No so in the "real Army".

More is almost always better then less. It really takes some work to some how the same is better just re-arranged or better yet, less is better.