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Old 02-18-2007   #1
120mm
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Default Seeking comments on viral I/O video

This video looks like something I've heard troops talk about, but not actually "do" in public. I'm posting a link, here, not remembering actually seeing it before (If so, I apologize.)

I'm interested in possible impacts: My head says "not good" but my gut says "what the hell".

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6d3b99daae

Basic summary: A trooper dips his bullets in a can of "pork" and explains how he is going to send muslims fighting him "to hell", with flashcards.
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Old 02-18-2007   #2
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Ive heard of this as well. I always liked the way it uses the enemy's own beliefs against them. Their religious fervor is one of their greatest strengths. Converting an opponent's strength into a weakness is always a good idea. There's probably a passage in Sun Tzu that says so! But Im sure they could just issue a fatwa that will assuage any fear of this.

There are undoubtedly many who would say that this is barbaric and not good "strategic corporal-ing". I would wager many of those people oppose the war in general, and live in the USA or Europe. But Im certain (unless there is already some religious principle that clears this up - Im no Imam) things like this will give the zealous insurgents pause.

The bad guys could also spin it to their benefit, I suppose. Go around telling people - relatives of the dead - that their loved ones are in hell because of the Americans and have been robbed of their martyrdumb. Im sure that would put the fire in them.
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Last edited by CPT Holzbach; 02-18-2007 at 11:46 AM. Reason: Wasnt done talking yet...
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Old 02-18-2007   #3
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Hi 120 and CPT Holzbach,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPT Holzbach View Post
There are undoubtedly many who would say that this is barbaric and not good "strategic corporal-ing". I would wager many of those people oppose the war in general, and live in the USA or Europe. But Im certain (unless there is already some religious principle that clears this up - Im no Imam) things like this will give the zealous insurgents pause.
I wouldn't say it was "barbaric", but I would say it's crude - it is about the same level of sophistication as burning Mickey Mouse in effigy, and about as effective as that would be on American troops. Part of the problem is that while pork is "unclean", the concept of ritual pollution requires intent on the part of the individual. Furthermore, many of the proscriptions in Islam are relaxed in certain specified situations, travel, jihad, etc. (check out al-Ghazali's Revivification of the Religious Sciences with an imam, notably the book on travel.)

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Originally Posted by CPT Holzbach View Post
The bad guys could also spin it to their benefit, I suppose. Go around telling people - relatives of the dead - that their loved ones are in hell because of the Americans and have been robbed of their martyrdumb. Im sure that would put the fire in them.
Their relatives wouldn't be "in hell"; their bodies would have been desecrated, but that wouldn't affect their souls. Probably the closest analogy for a Christian would be to find that one or two of the people in your patrol had been killed and had inverted crosses carved into their foreheads. Their reactions would probably be the same as yours would be - a bit of fear and a lot of hatred and anger.

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Old 02-18-2007   #4
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...I always liked the way it uses the enemy's own beliefs against them. Their religious fervor is one of their greatest strengths.

It doesn't do that at all. As Marc tried to explain, it is based on a mistaken perception of their beliefs and is thus incapable of acheiving the intended effect.

There are undoubtedly many who would say that this is barbaric and not good "strategic corporal-ing".

Its not barbaric - but neither does it have anything to do with good or bad "strategic corporal-ing". Its just juvenile idiocy. It's already clear that it is a positive motivational tool for your average Snuffy "yeah, ####'em, send the bastards to hell!" However, the only effect on the bad guys would be similarly emotional - to piss'em off. Or perhaps they'll just be amused, and snicker to themselves about the stupidity of the infidel as they emplace their next IED ambush. As far as the general indig population - it only furthers their perception of our guys as ignorant westerners attacking a misunderstood aspect of the faith, rather than reaching a real solution to dealing with murderers and criminals.
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Old 02-18-2007   #5
Merv Benson
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I agree that the activity has little impact on the enemy.

However, I think it is more about building our guys morale by disrespecting the enemy. In World War II one admiral said he was going to see that the only place the Japanese language was spoken was in Hell. Gen. Patton talked about going to kill "those purple pissing Japs." Neither statement would pass the political correctness test today, but they did give voice to the anger felt toward the enemy and they probable did inspire the effort to defeat the enemy.

Sometimes political correctness saps the heat from the battle and makes the whole conflict look more cold blooded which also helps the enemy.
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Old 02-18-2007   #6
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Sometimes political correctness saps the heat from the battle and makes the whole conflict look more cold blooded which also helps the enemy.

I've been thinking about the political correctness movement in language (semanticism?) and the ethereal euphemisms applied to battle and war.

My hypothesis is that restrictive ROE's and political correctness are a "glad handing" corollary in the political spectrum of combat. I think there is likely a direct correlation between the two and as you see one increase you see the other also increase. I would further hypothesize that there is a direct inverse correlation between effectiveness in combat and the political correctness describing the combat.

I think in describing war as "peace keeping" and further "humanitarian" we've created an environment where the expectations of a soldier and general is skewed and the politics increases the risks for all in the theater of combat.

In the restrictive mental cubicle of political correctness and euphemistic dialog those who aren't boxed in by the politics will squeak through the cracks and videos as posted above will leak through. The politics and likely history will say the war in Iraq was ill advised and horribly justified, but the political history of the Iraq war and WW2 were and are so different. Imagine the message differences to the public.


There isn't much humanitarian in this WW2 poster.


Religion as a tool of war never by western civilization? Imagine this being said about Islam today. "You can be an Iraqi or Muslim but not both?" Yes I know that the corollary isn't complete, but it still is a remarkable contrast to the politics of today.


Just for MarcT......


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Old 02-18-2007   #7
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Quote:
Its not barbaric - but neither does it have anything to do with good or bad "strategic corporal-ing". Its just juvenile idiocy. It's already clear that it is a positive motivational tool for your average Snuffy "yeah, ####'em, send the bastards to hell!" However, the only effect on the bad guys would be similarly emotional - to piss'em off. Or perhaps they'll just be amused, and snicker to themselves about the stupidity of the infidel as they emplace their next IED ambush. As far as the general indig population - it only furthers their perception of our guys as ignorant westerners attacking a misunderstood aspect of the faith, rather than reaching a real solution to dealing with murderers and criminals.
I agree, this is juvenile idiocy and in a perfect world it would stop there.

However, videos of this nature can and will be used in by the enemy in their IO/PsyOp releases to continue to characterize coalition forces, especially American forces, as Christian crusaders who are targeting all Muslims and who do not respect the Muslim faith, no matter where it falls on the secular to fundamentalist spectrum.

While I do not think it will spread to the same level, I am reminded of the Enfield rifle cartridge fun the British had in India.
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Old 02-18-2007   #8
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It reminds me of being in elementary school and playing swords at the urinal. Or playing the game, who can piss the highest. It's rather ridiculous. Especially when you look farther on the same site and see a propaganda video of 2 heroes getting blown out of the sky to a chorus of praises to Allah.

As a sidebar, according to recent debate in Congress, that SAM was obviously built in someones garage off of downloaded internet plans and didn't have anything to do with any neighboring countries supporting the insurgency....That wouldn't be possible. I don't think Iran had anything to do with the Marine barracks bombing in Beirut, either.....or that poor Lt. COL USMC, that got hung over there or what they did to that COS there. That was all the work of small groups of like minded citizens without any Iranian support......But, I digress...it's now time to surf the latest Hollywood gossip and see if Oprah has any more additions to her book club.
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Old 02-19-2007   #9
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The impact of this particular video will probably be nil to minimal. However watching this right after reading the excellent article on "The Power of Political Mobilization" in Issue 7 of the SWJ, it really made me wonder if our military truely has enough strategic corporals to facilitate mobilizing the population to support our effort. While acts like this are mainly intended to entertain fellow soldiers and blow off stress, the reality, as we all know, is that they end up on places like U-Tube where the entire global population can download them, and then spin them to support their message. Look the American soldiers hate Muslims, they're not here to protect you, etc. Again this was clowning around, but it is one more straw on the camel's back in this IO war. While I agree with previous comments on political correctness impacting our operations, in this case I don't see this as PC comment, but rather a strategic argument on why we have the real the guys in occassionally, and explain the potential undesired 2d order effects.

bismark, while I don't deny Iranin meddling, don't forget the Iraqi military had MANPADS, and we sure as heck didn't even get close to securing 10% of their arms initially. The Iraqi insurgents don't need much support from outside nations in this area, but none the less they have received EFPs from some entity in Iran, and the level of sosphistication of some recent attacks indicate they received training from a capable special operations unit (most likely Iran). I do think the Iranina Special Operations is very capable, and this isn't just reflected in the performance of their surrogate force the Hezbollah, but I personally saw a counter terrorist unit I was training with who recently returned from training in Iran, and their skills were markedly improved. The soldiers who went there thought the training was some of the best they received.

Iran is obviously playing a political game of brinksmanship, but don't confuse the current regime with the regime that supported the atrocities in Lebanon. Motivations may be different now, and what would be interesting is to see why they think they have us by the balls now, thus can (and so far have) get away with their support of various factions in Iraq? If nothing else they are survivors, so I'm not 100% convinced that the support coming from Iran is authorized by the highest levels of government. They want to stick around for awhile. Like a lot of Middle Eastern Governments, they may not have enough political strength to bring their subordinates to heel.

Last edited by Bill Moore; 02-19-2007 at 02:02 AM. Reason: grammar, and to add a point
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Old 02-19-2007   #10
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wow. The value of this website is reflected in your response. You know far more than I do. Good lord. I can only go through the open source stuff that I have read. My hat goes off to all of you guys fighting the good fight. My family thanks all of you!!! I carry a gun when I have the privilage to be with my daughter, just in case. You guys in Theatre are in a whole different dynamic.

It's a good point about the manpads. I am just a cop in CONUS these days. It just makes me wonder why suddenly POTUS decided to now bring up the Iranian issue when we all know they have been heavily involved for a long period of time. A lot of Americans have suffered due to them. That our media is trying to make it look like some kind of Seepah gone wild is ridiculous. I really doubt they have a bunch of agents that are freelancing. These are just my opinions....I realize that i am getting into an areas that no one who is able to, can....I guess I will quit the ranting and just thank all of you out there keeping us safe and all of you that have created this site!
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Old 02-19-2007   #11
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Jedburgh's right. This video is idiotic and juvenile. It reminded me of one of the main reasons that I always opposed the use of US conventional forces in Central America: When you bring in large numbers of conventional troops, you will inevitably be creating a lot of cross-cultural friction and, eventually, hatred. Even in Central America -- a region relatively close to us culturally --in exercises our troops had begun to refer to the locals as "Hondos" and "Salvos" and in one case "LBGs" ("Little Brown Guys" -- See what I mean?)
Of course, we had it relatively easy as PSYOPers -- we didn't have to compete with thousands of angry E4s armed with video cameras, internet connections... and cans of pork.
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Old 02-19-2007   #12
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The rants have a purpose. They stir up discussion. I posted the video, knowing it would stir debate, but not really knowing where it would lead.

I count myself as ignorant in that particular corner of Islam. I thought that the actual act of being contaminated with pork would actually get you sent to Hell. But my read on observed Muslim behavior at Armor School suddenly got a readjustment with this thread.

Suddenly, a lot of things just came together. Thanks!

Last edited by 120mm; 02-19-2007 at 07:14 AM. Reason: oopsie
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Old 02-19-2007   #13
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Quote:
I am just a cop in CONUS these days.
Bismark, My hat's off to you ! I wouldn't have your job over EOD ever ! You have to establish communication with the "bad" guys and figure something out quickly.

Quote:
They want to stick around for awhile. Like a lot of Middle Eastern Governments, they may not have enough political strength to bring their subordinates to heel.
Bill's point is dead on ! Even 17 years later following independence, some of the former east bloc cannot contend with their "subordinates". A trip to Tbilisi, Georgia makes the wild, wild west look like a picnic gone out of control.

Last edited by Stan; 02-19-2007 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 02-20-2007   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
I count myself as ignorant in that particular corner of Islam. I thought that the actual act of being contaminated with pork would actually get you sent to Hell. But my read on observed Muslim behavior at Armor School suddenly got a readjustment with this thread.

Suddenly, a lot of things just came together. Thanks!
It’s good to see that people are learning more and changing they perceptions… For Muslim to eat pork is forbidden, like some other stuff, BUT if his life is depend on it, he CAN eat it. That fact alone blowing all that stupidity off. And second, being killed with “impure” bullet doesn’t send anyone to hell since that Muslim didn’t eat in/take it on his own will. He was killed by enemy bullet. That’s all. Where those bullets were dip, hold or roll into means nothing. Matter of fact, it is really funny to see that there is some people out there who think that that is big deal and that is “working”.
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Old 02-20-2007   #15
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Default Provacative Value

I don't see any provacative value with this video. It's not going to produce any rage in anyone to the point of causing them to make any tactical mistakes and take unnecessary risks. On the contrary, it will be put out as proof that America hates islam and is making war on islam. I can see al jazeera running that video on national tv in any number of places.
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Old 12-28-2007   #16
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Default Viral videos

This video was posted 2X before on other sites with very few hits.
we found it,
We re-titled it and it got over 85,000 views.
Nice propaganda piece:
It has a nice implication; 4 bullet holes in YOU, as Insurgent.
It could have other pro-terror implications, but you need to get past the 4 bullet holes first,
which we have already keyed in the viewers mind.
http://warintel.blogspot.com/2007/06...-standing.html
The interplay between the title and content is very important to getting some
viral status to the vid ( lots of plays ).

The first vid mentioned has over 240,000 views,
Post it to your site, and track it on your logs.
You should get a concept of what countrys are
viewing it, and the search words used to find it,
Form an demographic from your log data
and you should get an good idea of the impact
of the video, and on whom.
There has to be an appeal of some sort, positive or negative; to get 240,000 + views.



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Last edited by BILL; 12-28-2007 at 11:52 AM.
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