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| FID & Working With Indigenous Forces Training, advising, and operating with local armed forces in Foreign Internal Defense. |
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#1 | ||||||||
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,877
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http://www.jfklink.com/speeches/jfk/...jfk205_61.html Nation building Quote:
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Last edited by Bill Moore; 12-26-2012 at 04:59 AM. |
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#2 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Slapout,Al.
Posts: 4,453
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Nice find Bill. So after all your experiences in SF which of our past and present administrations have had the best Policies with regard to UW/COIN/IW or what ever it is being called now.
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#3 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,426
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In JFK's era we were focused as our primary mission on stopping the spread of the Sino-Soviet sphere of influence. That focus totally biased how we thought about and how we approached the many nationalist movements that took place in the contested spaces of the "third world."
Today we are excessively focused on AQ in a very similar way; and equally it has placed a bias on our understanding and our approaches to the many nationalist movements underway in the contested spaces and populaces. When one seeks to leverage someone else's nationalist insurgent energy for their own larger purposes, it rarely works out well for the people who's movement has been hijacked by these outside forces. But there is indeed a "rhyme" between to two eras; Now to find a better "reason" that has been largely missing. (as in "no rhyme nor reason...")
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Robert C. Jones Intellectus Supra Scientia "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired) |
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#4 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,877
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A quick response at the end of my lunch break. First off I think that is a great question that deserves more than a quick response, but until I can dwell on it longer the quick answer is President Bush Sr. For every administration it is easy to find fault in many decisions in hindsight, so I try to focus on I think they knew at the time and their rationale for making the decision. President Bush Sr was very cautious and deliberate, and in my opinion professionally managed the Kuwait and Panama scenarios. Avoiding a quagmire in both scenarios, and a couple of smaller contingencies. Obviously a bit of mis-step in Somalia (or maybe the military mis-stepped by proposing we take sides and diverted a humanitarian assistance mission into something else). Both President Bush Sr and President Carter saw combat during WWII, but in my opinion Carter didn't make decisions based on global realities, but rather the way he hoped the world was, and he was constantly disappointed. Bush Sr was a realist. Reagan did a lot in the UW realm, and while there were victories, especially in Afghanistan, I'm not convinced it was as well done as it could have been if we looked beyond the short term goal of ousting the Soviets, but then again that all seems so clear in hindsight. |
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#5 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 3,583
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He certainly served during WWII (midshipman at Navy, 1943-1946), and then active duty until his father's death caused his return to Plains in 1953; but I see no combat (link and link). From the second link:
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Mike
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JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#6 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,877
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Mike,
Thanks for popping my bubble . The good news is that his lack of combat experience helps explain his naivism to some extent. The bad news is my memory is failing me. I could of swore I saw commercials during the election of him manning a AAA weapon and firing at Japanese Zeros. That begs the question how many Presidents have actual combat experience? I'm thinking at a minimum you have George Washington, Teddy Roosevelt, Ike commanded in combat, not sure he saw any, JFK, and Bush Sr. Definitely not a requirement, and the impact of the experience doesn't seem to be consistent. Washington and Bush emerged from combat and other life experiences more cautious and mature politically, while both Teddy Roosevelt and JFK remained risk seekers while serving as President. |
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#7 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 3,583
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I have to mention our first 100% Scots-Irish president, Andrew Jackson (parents from Carrickfergus, County Antrim), who had a lot of combat experience - in and out of military service - starting as a 13-year old militiaman in the Revolutionary War.
My memory conflates a lot of things, but it's been doing that for a number of decades. ![]() Regards Mike
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JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#8 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,877
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http://www.jfklink.com/speeches/jfk/.../jfk23_61.html
Special Message to the Congress on Gold and the Balance of Payments Deficit. February 6, 1961 Quote:
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#9 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,877
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http://www.jfklink.com/speeches/jfk/...jfk435_61.html
Letter to President Ngo Dinh Diem on the Sixth Anniversary of the Republic of Viet-Nam. October 26, 1961 Quote:
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#10 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 103
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Actually, for most Foreign Policy and Military Affairs, you can read documents right out of the post World War II period and pretty much sum up the current conventional wisdom.
For my particular hobby horse, American policy toward South Asian countries, it's even more maddening. Not a new thought in decades and decades, despite evidence to the contrary. IMO. ![]() PS: Okay, I don't really know that for everything. I am such an exaggerator. Amend that to, "for the few things I read, it seems like nothing new under the sun...." Last edited by Madhu; 12-27-2012 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Added PS |
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#11 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,426
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In both cases, it was US action by the previous US President that both created the republic in question and elevated that partner President into power. This then left to the successor US president the difficult task of sustaining a system so illegitimate in its roots against a growing opposition by those disposed of a power they had earned through warfare. We intervene for our interests, then confuse the picture when we attempt to justify our actions in the context of the interests of the systems we create. But for Ike's intervention there would most likely have been a fairly stable, unified Vietnam by 1961, albeit with a communist system of governance, under a president with local legitimacy. This independent country would most likely have turned to the US to help protect it from unwanted controlling influence out of the Soviet Union or China. But our opposition to that served to push them into those very camps to generate sufficient capacity to stand up to what the US brought to the fight. Inevitably the best interests of the people caught in the middle of such internal and external power plays are the ones who suffer most. Are we similarly pushing Afghans deeper into the arms of those we intervened to block the influence of in the first place? I doubt many Pashtuns would have been willing to support an AQ operation against a foreign target prior to 9/11. After the past 11 years of US intervention in Afghanistan I suspect that is no longer the case. Tactically, the conflicts in Vietnam and Afghanistan are/were two very different places (though very similar programs have been tried in both). Strategically, however, they are/were very similar and we have made many of the same strategic decisions for very similar rationale that led framed an unwindable situation in Vietnam to frame an equally unwindable situation in Afghanistan. This the problem of focusing on tactics (programs, actions, lessons learned, metrics, etc). It detracts from the larger issues that frame from the outset the conditions those tactics will take place within. Vietnam was lost in the 50s, not the 70s. Everything in between was in many ways as unnecessary as it was ineffective. Similarly Afghanistan was lost in '02-'04 in how we framed both the problem and the solution strategically. We need to get better at strategy, and studying paper such as these shared by Bill with an open mind are a critical step in that process. I am finding a wealth of strategic products organized by administration here: https://www.hsdl.org/?collection/stratpol&id=pd&pid=rr
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Robert C. Jones Intellectus Supra Scientia "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired) |
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#12 | |
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 3,085
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Eisenhower was a politician in uniform...one of the reasons he was selected to command Allied ground forces in Europe. His foreign policy judgement was always hazy, and we continue to pay for how he framed issues to this day. TR's risk seeking is in some ways over-emphasized, as he seemed to have a good instinct for when NOT to get involved with overseas things.
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"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare." T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War |
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#13 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,426
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Don't forget Private Buchanan (war of 1812) and several others...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._military_rank
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Robert C. Jones Intellectus Supra Scientia "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired) |
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#14 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Slapout,Al.
Posts: 4,453
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Yes, when you get some time I look forward to your longer answer. Bush the first was the only President ever to be Director of CIA before becoming President, do you think that helped his more realistic world view? |
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#15 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Berkshire County, Mass.
Posts: 693
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He also served two terms in the House, was U.N. Ambassador, and envoy to the PRC prior to becoming DCI. I think it is fair to say that he was/is the best prepared U.S. President as far as experience goes.
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Gardens are not made by singing ‘Oh, how beautiful,’ and sitting in the shade. – Rudyard Kipling |
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#16 | |||||
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,877
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I have a couple of friends that are historians of note that also critical of Ike as President, but based on my limited studies I think if we followed his guidance not to over hype the threat (though hard to over hype the very real threat of the USSR, but we could control how we responded to it), and to live within our means we would be in a better place today. Below an interesting excerpt from one of his speeches after he left office. Excerpts from pages 40-42 http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/a...l_speeches.pdf Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce, January 31, 1962 Quote:
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#17 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,877
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JFK wrote and spoke well about special warfare, but in practice I didn't see his administration as very effective based on my studies. Maybe given more time he would have proven himself to be strategically competent. His flame was exguished pre-maturely. I don't know if you can look at each administration strickly from optic of UW/FID/IW, but you have to look at their foreign policy as whole. In some cases avoiding engagements proved to be a good decision and of course in others we probably needed to get involved but failed to do so. Those good at miniminizing our involvement were Ike and President Bush Sr. Bush Sr. When Bush Sr did engage he almost always ensured the military objectives were clear and achievable. He learned as he went, but overall I'm fan of President Reagan for a lot of reasons. Although Congress did the heavy lifting he authorized the formation of USSOCOM which literally transformed our Special Operations Forces which significantly enhanced our ability to conduct FID/UW/IW. I doubt we would have seen the successes that SOF has had if it wasn't for Reagan. Bush Jr aggressively employed SOF, but it is still debatable (in my opinion) if his strategy was effective or simply made the problem worse? He certainly didn't have an end game in mind. Obama in the future when we have the ability to look at his administration with less emotion may prove to be one of the best for effectively waging FID/UW/IW. I know that comment will draw fire, but I'm calling it the way I see it. |
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#18 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Slapout,Al.
Posts: 4,453
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Bill, very thoughtful response. You did a pretty Objective analysis IMO.
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