Fiasco at the Army War College?

[William F. Owen]

Absolutely. Studying Islam, radical or not, will absolutely help one gain insights into the Taliban. Cultural fluency is critical if we're going to reshape the middle east.

OK, you may gain some insights, but are they useful, timely or relevant?
Why not just study the Taliban behaviour, as a matter or empirical record? That is how the vast majority of insurgencies have been defeated.

What is more, my understanding was that we are talking about the professional education of military officers, so their primary requirement is to be skilled in the application of force. The cultural insights they need are extremely context specific and part of pre-deployment training, not an education package at AWC.

MARCT I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. For me, the problem lies not with studying your opponents philosophy, etc., but for confusing that philosophy with its pragmatic applications in the field of conflict.

I can't see where we disagree. I concur. Having studied what is laughingly called "Soviet Operational Art," it was entirely a product of both insightful, and flawed, experimentation and operational analysis - which is why PU was re-written 3 times in 15 years. If you wanted to understand the Soviet Army, you read PU, stuff from the Rayzan/Frunze and some Isby, not the collected works of Lenin.

[Voodoun]

Our lack of understanding Japanese culture and religion had a negative affect on our ability to cope with their tactics didn't it? Is this different? if there's a wealth of information on how a group uses force, then certainly it is more relevant to study than something else, if all you're concerned with is force on force applications. no doubt.

In 2001 did we have a tactical study of Taliban methods?

[William F. Owen]

Our lack of understanding Japanese culture and religion had a negative affect on our ability to cope with their tactics didn't it?

We (the British at least) has ample opportunity to study Japanese military culture, from the siege of Port Arthur onwards (where we had military observers). We just chose to ignore it. Slim defeated the Japanese in Burma, basically by understanding their logistics, far more than their military culture.

In 2001 did we have a tactical study of Taliban methods?

Well you should. There were many, many sources, considering it had not changed since the time of the Russians and the CIA assistance.

[marct]

Hi Wilf,

OK, you may gain some insights, but are they useful, timely or relevant?
Why not just study the Taliban behaviour, as a matter or empirical record? That is how the vast majority of insurgencies have been defeated.

Hmmm, okay, I think this may be a terminology problem (aka, I forgot to unpack my brain ).

Absolutely, the data for the study has to be Taliban behaviour and the Taliban "material artifacts" (e.g. night letters, propaganda, etc.). But the Taliban (and everyone) operates with certain un-voiced logics and assumptions which shape their behaviour and products, and these logics and assumptions are operationalized assuming a semantic network. Hmmm, this is getting more, not less, complex!

The logics and assumptions are primarily cultural, while the semantic network is "cultural" but, also, rooted in Islam as a whole (as an example, the laws of war are different between Pastunwali and Islam, and both have strong symbolic resonance).

So, if we want to understand, say, their inflitration / intimidation tactics, we look at their behaviour, try to figure out the patterns and then start looking at cultural myths and myth patterns contained in Islam. BTW, this is also the same process that is used in constructing both CA, IO and PSYOPS counter-propaganda (or it should be... ).

What is more, my understanding was that we are talking about the professional education of military officers, so their primary requirement is to be skilled in the application of force. The cultural insights they need are extremely context specific and part of pre-deployment training, not an education package at AWC.

For the average NCO or junior officer, this really doesn't mean that much and getting into the analytic details would be somewhat ridiculous, at least at the level of required, formal PME. Where it is appropriate in the PME cycle is in things like a general discussion of narratives (which is one of the technical terms for this) and then giving a few examples while making more available if people want to get into it deeper.

You mentioned the primary requirement being the skilled application of force, and I don't disagree at all. The problem, however, is, to use an analogy, in figuring out where and how to apply the appropriate force to achieve the desired result (i.e. targeting and force selection). Now, the application of force assumes that that force will be "read" as a message; in effect, the type of force and target selection for force application is a "language". The real problem is the assumption that it is a universal language - it isn't - and this is where cultural logics and semantic networks come in.

I can't see where we disagree. I concur. Having studied what is laughingly called "Soviet Operational Art," it was entirely a product of both insightful, and flawed, experimentation and operational analysis - which is why PU was re-written 3 times in 15 years. If you wanted to understand the Soviet Army, you read PU, stuff from the Rayzan/Frunze and some Isby, not the collected works of Lenin.

Hey, when I was trying to get a handle on the Soviets (many, MANY years ago), I just read Russian history - worked wonders!

[William F. Owen]

Now, the application of force assumes that that force will be "read" as a message; in effect, the type of force and target selection for force application is a "language". The real problem is the assumption that it is a universal language - it isn't - and this is where cultural logics and semantic networks come in.

... and, with reference to that type of force, will vary massively across both countries and cultures, so AWC is not the place to learn it. Pre-deployment training will be.

[Cavguy]

101. tommyd:


This is a really informative thread, Thanks for all the great info.

Europe is for most purposes already in the can from what I can gather on the subject.

The U.S. is next.

With the incoming administration there is no way we can fight off the attack. Why do you think the rest of the world basically supported Obama?
Now that this has come to pass there will be no stopping the advancement of Islam. The Islamist now know they will have a much easier ride for at least the next 4 years. Does anyone really think the Obama administration will do much other than TALK…
That is exactly what the Islamist are counting on,
While the west TALKS and postures and takes comfort in being “PC” the Islamist are moving, building, expanding, fortifying their positions.
Fundamental Tactics,
They are on a War footing and the west is worried about what size their next flat panel T.V is going to be.
Face the facts, The Political class in the U.S. is brain dead. The citizenship for the most part is too decadent to see the tsunami coming square on.
Attention All Hands:
Stand by for Heavy Rolls.

Someone from PJ Media buy this guy a plane ticket to Prague, Budapest, or Berlin like Joe the plumber to look for the "lost" Europe living under Islamic law.

[Voodoun]

Europe's just "lost" period.

Although I agree that's a bit of a bizzare partisan sentiment, next time you feel up to it, read "War of Ideas" by Walid Phares. There's some pretty interesting insights into how the Islamists work. I would direct you straight to Knights Under the Prophet's Banner, but that's just a pain to read.

[Cavguy]

Europe's just "lost" period.

Although I agree that's a bit of a bizzare partisan sentiment, next time you feel up to it, read "War of Ideas" by Walid Phares. There's some pretty interesting insights into how the Islamists work. I would direct you straight to Knights Under the Prophet's Banner, but that's just a pain to read.

I just can't buy into a giant Islamist conspiracy.. Especially of the type the wingnuts on that site are talking about with "infiltrators" and "agents" emplaced throughout our government.

Most of the Muslims I have met in Europe have little desire to live under an Islamic state, hence why they live in Europe and not the ME.

[Voodoun]

When I say Europe is lost, I just mean its lost - those people are goofy as sin. The Germans are the worst - seriously, its like if you dont have a pee fetish you arent cool.


I don't know if there's much of a conspiracy, really, AQ and simliar groups have made their goals pretty clear.

So I grew up in a small neighborhood next door to a large Palestinian family. They're very religious, but no more than your average devout Baptist. The three families with kids in the area had 3 boys of similar age. We all grew up together, celebrating Christmas and Ramadan at eachother's houses.

The Arab family's extended relatives were always over, and on special occasions big trips to the local mosque would ensue, for birthdays and such. The Mosque was just a good sized house across from the University.

A couple years after 9/11 that Mosque was discovered to be part of terrorist financing network.

For years we thought the idea that the Soviets had agents in high levels of government was just McCarthyist claptrap. We now know that our entire counterintelligence apparatus was designed with the crucial assistance of an MI6 officer "Kim" Philby. Years later we discovered that Philby had been a Soviet Agent since he was at Cambridge.

I don't think Islamists have penetrated our security apparatus, no, but there is certainly something to be said for their clandestine capabilities.

[davidbfpo]

Europe's just "lost" period.

Another myth gains momentum; China was "lost" to the communists, Vietnam was "lost" too and Weimar Germany was "stabbed in the back". Sounds very neat "lost" and IMHO is a shallow argument.

Yes demography says the Muslim population in Europe will increase, yes some of their views maybe different; this does not mean Europe's evolution is set in stone. The vast majority of Muslims do not follow the version of their faith that AQ, extremists and radicals advocate.

One could argue that the USA that the world has watched since 1945 has in the last decade dramatically changed. A smaller white / European population, a huge Spanish-speaking set of communities, not to overlook the Asians. No-one IHMO in Europe says the USA has been "lost".

A brief response.

davidbfpo