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Thread: U.S. Special Operations: Personal Opinions

  1. #81
    Council Member 82redleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoun View Post
    ...As far as RC CA/PSYOP being scruffy and needing haircuts, I think there is a need for these groups to culturally distinguish themselves from the high and tight 82nd types. In the Arab world, for instance, facial hair and beards are immediate symbols of virility, power, and trustworthiness. I cannot stand facial hair on myself, and I look absolutely retarded with a mustache, but bet your britches I'm growing one out when I get deployed (hopefully I can stand it). From what I've seen there's an intentional cultivation of that scruffier look specifically in order to present a less militant and hostile image to the population.

    Does this come across as lazy or rebellious to Commanders?
    You can grow a mustache and not have a high and tight, and still be within Army regulations. As pointed out below, it probably doesn't make that much difference.

    The PSYOP team sergeant that we inherited on our A-stan deployment (he rotated about 3 months after we arrived) had a great Grizzly Adams red beard, modified DCUs with velcro all over, and absolutely no badges, patches, nametags, anything. He also wore a pro-tech helmet and a plate carrier whenever he could (we ended up threatening to leave him on the FOB if he didn't conform to PPE directives). His excuse was "I have to blend in, there is a price on my head because I am a SOF guy"- I've got news for you- you stick out like a sore thumb, because you are getting out of an Up Armor HMMWV. If you want to blend in, try looking like the other 30 Americans you are traveling with. Guys like this give PSYOPpers a bad name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    And let's not even get started on the dreaded rolling of sleeves. Folding back the cuff of one's sleeve about two inches? That has scarred many mens' souls...
    That is just lack of standards. Wear the uniform, wear it right, its not that hard. Out humping the mountains, I got it- you do what needs to be done. If you don't have the discipline to get your uniform right when you come back on the FOB, why should I believe you have the discipline to clear your weapon right, take care of your vehicles right, or do anything else right. And if you live on the FOB, and your only exposure to the heat is the walk from work to the DFAC (or from your NTV to the DFAC), you have no excuse whatsoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
    Out humping the mountains, I got it- you do what needs to be done.
    That is what I was referring to. I've never lived on a FOB and I've never made any attempt to understand the madness that occurs there. There are people who go diving for their heart pills when they see a photo of a guy with his cuff folded while on a raid.

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    I suppose my perception of this is skewed by the fact that the only Active Duty time I really have is months spent either in the schoolhouse at Bragg surrounded by instructors and non-AIT students with longish hair and scruffy facial hair, or in a sea of 82nd guys with razor sharp high and tights. Very interesting perspectives.

    As far as rolling the sleeves, we were shown to tuck them up and in, not out. Running around Camp Mackall in Cat 5 in full battle rattle was bad enough with cuffed sleeves and unboused boots, I cannot imagine what 140 degree heat is going to be like.

    How effective are techniques like soaking a keffyiah in water? Moderately, I assume?

    Bill Moore mentioned the superficiality of fitting it, and I totally agree, so my question is, what are some of the deeper 'fitting in' methods you would suggest? I mean, I'm as culturally aware it gets, having grown up with Arab culture in my intimate surroundings, but what specific things can soldiers who work with the people do to fit in better?

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    Well, from what I understand about the name tapes, that was a centralized directive from USASOC (again, I dont know, that's just what I've heard from multiple sources). From what I've been told by more than one authority in both DoD and DoJ, there was good reason for concern in protecting family names.

    I've got a rather unique last name, and I'm actually pretty certain I'm the ONLY one with it in the US Army (according to the last AKO search I did).

    Although I never got to find out the details of the investigation, I do know for a fact that someone used my name and SSN# and enlisted in the Marine Corps. All I know is that he was in the DEP and that the authorities were aggressively looking for him.

    That sort of thing scares the bejeezus out me, particularly because I spent some time on the editorial staff of a significantly distributed paper, and resourceful student radicals were able to track down personal information and deliver threats I was advised to take seriously.

    I wonder if I can get a fake nametape made up - like "Nasser" or something.

    What I don't understand is why anyone would want to grow a full on beard in Iraq, good lord. And if you're on the FOB, why wouldnt you want to be showered, clean, shaved, and neat? Seems like that would be a luxury.

  5. #85
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoun View Post
    As far as rolling the sleeves, we were shown to tuck them up and in, not out. Running around Camp Mackall in Cat 5 in full battle rattle was bad enough with cuffed sleeves and unboused boots, I cannot imagine what 140 degree heat is going to be like.
    I don't let my guys do that. Neither does army regulation. Here's why:

    When you see a guy burn the Sierra out of his arm from a hot .50 cal cartridge or a second degree sunburn, both of which take him out of the fight for days, cuffing defeats the purpose of the function of the uniform.

    This is a microcosm example of how we've excused our way into bad practices and shortcuts over the past few years. We used to monitor hydration. Now we allow our guys to sidestep uniform functionality for comfort.

    I've worked under the command of an AOB in combat as a TACON conventional troop commander. I've worked with NG and AC SF teams. All do their jobs well. We had no problems between the two "worlds." We knew our role and how we fit into their scheme of maneuver. We were able to express that to our Soldiers, and we were very clear to our guys that we would stick to the standards and regulations that we had trained and followed up until that point, regardless of what those around us would do. There were things that we bent on, due to form and function (like grooming standards during mission due to water conservations), but uniforms function was not one of them.

    As for fake nametapes, don't bother. You'll only confuse the identity process for your family. If you don't want someone to know your name, take the velcro nametape off.
    Last edited by RTK; 01-22-2009 at 12:07 PM.
    Example is better than precept.

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    RTK, what a great way to assume we're all gonna die! :-)

    No, seriously, very valid point.

    Also, the cuffing of sleeves I mentioned only meant one fold, up and in, so the sleeve stopped at the wrist, rather than somewhere on the hand, greatly improving airflow. I could feel my body temp drop significantly when doing this. Sunscreen was mandatory, of course, though, as was hydration, but when we were out at Land Nav the SF selection star course going on in our shared AO lost two soldiers to heat related issues (I think there were other more direct causes, one of which was multiple moccassin bites). I've spent most of my life in hot humid climates, where temperatures regularly got to 110+, and I simply cannot fathom the 140 degree heat you all have had to cope with. Its a huge concern of mine, and I intend to spend this summer making myself miserable in the Texas heat to acclimatize the best I can.

    Thinking about that guy who used my info to enlist, I wonder if its worth trying to dig up the results of that. It happened about 15 months ago, and I understand that I have no right to know what happened, but boy, I sure am curious.

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    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoun View Post
    Also, the cuffing of sleeves I mentioned only meant one fold, up and in, so the sleeve stopped at the wrist, rather than somewhere on the hand, greatly improving airflow.
    One cuff still defeats the function. You need gloves anyways, at least when dealing with crew served weapons on HMMWVs or 72 ton monsters that attract heat like white on rice. If I'm not mistaken, that's an Armywide policy when leaving the wire anyways (gloves and eye protection is part of the uniform). The cuffing allows a little pocket that's just the right size for brass. Even when dismounted, a thrown 5.56 round into the sleeve could result in the striken Soldier to unvoluntarily clench his muscles. If he's behind you in the stack and his weapon is flagging someone, it could have catastrophic results.

    From a motorized or mechanized perspective, we hung a Kestrel guage in our tank in May 2003. The gunner's station was 155 F. You'd scald yourself on the metal of the coopla. In 2005 the inside of my HMMWV, with a climate control system, in the middle of the Al Jezera desert in western Iraq was still over 100 F. Imagine if the driver cuffed and a stray .50 round went in his blouse. I can. We damn near rolled a vehicle.

    In the end, risk reduction control measures are emplaced for reasons. I'd bounce my ideas off my senior NCOs before I completed my risk assessment with special emphasis in reduction control measures. My last 1SG had 40% of his body burned in Iraq. Needless to say his pet peeve was uniforms, nomex, gloves, eye protection, and NO CUFFING.

    Your NCOs will direct you on the right path. Don't try to out-think them. Some of these guys have been doing this a while.

    We're from the government and we're here to help.
    Last edited by RTK; 01-22-2009 at 02:05 PM.
    Example is better than precept.

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    My unit consists of maybe 30% who have deployed, and the only ones who have deployed as PSYOP will not be deploying with us when we go. My current TPT has me as the second most senior person on it - my e5 promotion should be within the next couple months. I will be the only one who has completed PSYOP AIT, as oppose to the 3 week reclass. I'm not trying to out think anyone, I'm trying to get as much information vicariously as possible, so that my team doesnt make retarded mistakes, like getting burnt by hot brass because of cuffed sleeves.

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    Council Member sandbag's Avatar
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    My second trip out, two new PSYOPers attached to us reported directly to the J-4 and asked: "Can we have some knives and watches?" A couple of days later, they put each other in for CABs when a bird they were in got one or two rounds fired at it. Classic.

    Anecdotal and not fully reflecting upon the community, I know, but one of the biggest challenges I saw the CA/PSYOP guys face was the "kit makes the man" mentality. Work with SF? Awesome. Lots of people do, but beards, sterile ACUs and a bunch of kit you can't use right aren't required for the job. Sometimes, the more you try to fit in, the more you stand out. The locals have figured out that Joe isn't always allowed to sport the Grizzly Adams. Grow a porn/CW3 'stache and work from there. Just be mellow, and things will work out.



    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoun View Post

    Bill Moore mentioned the superficiality of fitting it, and I totally agree, so my question is, what are some of the deeper 'fitting in' methods you would suggest? I mean, I'm as culturally aware it gets, having grown up with Arab culture in my intimate surroundings, but what specific things can soldiers who work with the people do to fit in better?

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    Knives and watches? I'm not sure I understand that, is that code or something? Shouldn't everyone have a watch, and isn't some sort of knife/leatherman a good idea?

    As far as other kit, I've never understood why people would want to carry all sorts of extra gear. If anything I'm going to buy the farm because I leave something behind because I dont want to carry it. The sterile ACUs thing I defintely get though for many reasons, the aforementioned protective measure, as well as the elimination of rank as a concern when working with centers of gravity.

    I'm pretty set on the mellow part, and I'm quite comfortable with Arab customs, although I'm sure Iraqi customs are a bit different than Levantine ones. How do you guys handle being offered food and drink over there? do you just swig pepto all day and hope for the best?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoun View Post
    I'm pretty set on the mellow part, and I'm quite comfortable with Arab customs, although I'm sure Iraqi customs are a bit different than Levantine ones. How do you guys handle being offered food and drink over there? do you just swig pepto all day and hope for the best?
    Yep Actually I never did get sick from the local lunches, only from the vendor food. The food was actually pretty good, eat as little meat as you can and still be polite, you should do just fine. Of course why whould Psyops guys be eating w/ the locals? I thought "hearts and minds" belonged to CA and local unit commanders. What exactly do PSYOPS guys do?
    Reed
    Quote Originally Posted by sapperfitz82 View Post
    This truly is the bike helmet generation.

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    hearts and minds is, from what I understand, a phrase invented by PSYOP for PSYOP.

    I have no idea why we'd be eating over there, I just know I've heard people telling stories talking about it. A couple guys I know were living in safehouses way outside the wire, with an ODA, rolling around in old battered pick up trucks and donkeys and what not.


    But if you're working with a center of gravity, or key influencer, say, a mayor or an influential businessman, and you're in their house or office, I would be surprised if you werent being offered all kinds of "treats".

    The closest thing I have to operational experience is the CULEX out at FOB Freedom at Mackall, and as a TPT chief I was regularly being manuevered into highly uncomfortable situations into houses and offices and having gatorade thrust at me that these sweaty guys with bad hygiene were swigging from, not to mention cheap cigars.

    You know whats funny is, all this anticipation on my part, and I'm going to wind up in the green zone training the IO cell of some IA unit in an AC bldg the whole time.

  13. #93
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Knives and watches are

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoun View Post
    Knives and watches? I'm not sure I understand that, is that code or something? Shouldn't everyone have a watch, and isn't some sort of knife/leatherman a good idea?
    an old SF myth. Today, some units issue both, thus the plea for an issue...

    Get a good watch, preferably not battery operated; supply can get dicey and a Leatherman tool or a Gerber is more gooder than a knife for most things.
    ...The sterile ACUs thing I defintely get though for many reasons, the aforementioned protective measure, as well as the elimination of rank as a concern when working with centers of gravity.
    It's not a protective measure; not one that does much good for any practical purpose, anyway -- though it is considered by some to be high speed (mostly by people who have no real need). I wouldn't put too much credence on the elimination of rank; being honest, accurate and sensible counts for more than rank with most in the AO (and the Army) -- and if you try the "Mr." bit on any experienced officer or NCO, they're just going to ask you for your real ID card which you have to carry. I've ruined the day of several young Specialists and NCOs with nominally obscure rank status on that score; couple of LTs as well...

    Establish your credibility with competence -- that always works.

    Be careful with 'centers of gravity' that's an Operational level term that doesn't translate well to the tactical realm where you'll likely be working.
    ...How do you guys handle being offered food and drink over there? do you just swig pepto all day and hope for the best?
    Can't speak for others but I had no problems and I ate on the economy far more often that not. I can truthfully say that I never had a bad meal in the Middle East -- had plenty of bad ones in Asia, Latin America and here...

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    Council Member sandbag's Avatar
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    It's not a code: they just assumed that they were entitled to some kind of kitwhore version of a fruit basket for getting off the aircraft. Cool kid gear is overrated, but I don't think they got told that before they left CONUS.

    On food outside the wire: if you have med/vet people checking out local sources, that helps. If not, shoot for stuff that is thoroughly cooked. Bread is an awesome filler (and let me tell you the region has some excellent breads), and is usually a very safe bet.

    The whole no-rank, first-name thing has been done for years by jackass SP4s in the CID community. You'll not likely be in a situation in which you need to do that (then again, most CID guys aren't, either, but they do it all the same). Just follow the lead of older folks who are in charge. BLUF: if you are looking over your shoulder a lot when you're doing it, it's probably not a good practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoun View Post
    Knives and watches? I'm not sure I understand that, is that code or something? Shouldn't everyone have a watch, and isn't some sort of knife/leatherman a good idea?

    As far as other kit, I've never understood why people would want to carry all sorts of extra gear. If anything I'm going to buy the farm because I leave something behind because I dont want to carry it. The sterile ACUs thing I defintely get though for many reasons, the aforementioned protective measure, as well as the elimination of rank as a concern when working with centers of gravity.

    I'm pretty set on the mellow part, and I'm quite comfortable with Arab customs, although I'm sure Iraqi customs are a bit different than Levantine ones. How do you guys handle being offered food and drink over there? do you just swig pepto all day and hope for the best?

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    Default Perception vs reality vs situational awareness vs discipline

    Think all of those terms neatly explain what everyone is talking about and yet they are the way we judge soldiers today. If I'm disciplined and force those around me to be disciplined then none of the other terms apply to how I act or how I present myself. ACUs I hate them personally, but will I be caught in something else? No, I am still a soldier and do as soldiers should. In todays kinder, gentler Army we have issues such as these. Yes we want intelligent, free thinkers, but they also must understand the institution that is the Army. Sorry to admit this but it is not the officers job to enforce uniform adherence. Unfortunately it has started to come to this, many NCOs today are nothing more than glorified privates. As assholish as it sounds I make a point to make a uniform correction everyday. We kinda make it into a challenge to get other NCOs involved, before you know it, it catches fire. Be, know, do! Do they still teach that?

    Nothing like hot brass. I absolutely love it when hot brass goes down the back of my uniform. Think I want that on my wrist? I got it, it is flippin' hot out but not as hot as hot brass. I'd have to venture out and say if your dying while conducting movement then you may want to reevalute your physical conditioning. When was the last time you did body armour runs? Funny the more you use it the easier it gets, just a thought. For a truly unique experience throw the promask into the mix. Goes back to training and pushing yourself and those around you beyond your normal limits. There is plenty of talk on here about training won't beat that dead horse anymore. Basics, basics, basics.

    Funny the other day as I was logging into AKO there was this great picture of a soldier in a shop in Iraq wearing a ball cap. Perception it must be a SF guy, reality it was some conventional officer. What is the picture we are trying to paint? Sorry not a fan of the doesn't matter how you did as long as you looked good doing thought process. Know your job, know the regulations and present yourself in a professional manner and the rest will take care of itself.

    As far as other kit, I've never understood why people would want to carry all sorts of extra gear. If anything I'm going to buy the farm because I leave something behind because I dont want to carry it. The sterile ACUs thing I defintely get though for many reasons, the aforementioned protective measure, as well as the elimination of rank as a concern when working with centers of gravity.
    Kit. Want some I got 7 tough boxes, 2 duffle bags, and 3 kit bags of Army kit. Everytime I get ready to go back I have to go through RFI and add to it. There is stuff that has been in plastic for 5 years, more kit than you'll ever think about using. Hell I just about could outfit my own indig force, wait already have my wife and kid. Sterile does little to nothing except that on occasion we make CF staffs think we out rank the team sergeant and team leader, can be quite comical at times, especially when they find out it's actually the opposite. When dealing with locals it does absolutely nothing since your PPE covers it all anyways.
    Last edited by ODB; 01-22-2009 at 11:00 PM.
    ODB

    Exchange with an Iraqi soldier during FID:

    Why did you not clear your corner?

    Because we are on a base and it is secure.

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    Council Member sandbag's Avatar
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    Listen to this guy. He knows quite a few things.

    What you'll find is that there's a really bad perception in the rest of the Army that SOF is where you go if you want to do your own thing/be a cool kid/get tons of toys/whatever. It's wrong. SOF units are small because it's hard to find that many disciplined grownups who can check their ego at the door and work together for long periods in terrible conditions (hence the term "Quiet Professionals"!).

    Quote Originally Posted by ODB View Post
    Think all of those terms neatly explain what everyone is talking about and yet they are the way we judge soldiers today. If I'm disciplined and force those around me to be disciplined then none of the other terms apply to how I act or how I present myself.

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    Like I said, the last time I ran around in full battle rattle was a few months ago in cat 5 heat at Camp Mackall. It sucked. SF candidates were dying. Hydration only goes so far when in its hot as hell and you're on maybe 45 min-1.5 hours of interrupted sleep per day. That's why I was pointing out how awed I am by how you guys cope with 140 degree heat all summer long. You realize that the US military consists of the first people in the WORLD to manage that feat, right? Iraqi natives never ran around in the mid day summer sun loaded down with gear and wearing non-convection cooling clothes.

    I'm just really impressed.

    As far as the no name/no rank thing, just understand that its taught as a tactical procedural tool by the instructors at SWCS. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but given what I know about the targeting of SOF soldiers' families by cells here in the states, and the uniqueness of my last name, I get the name tape thing, while the rank thing has been explained by everyone from E5's back from deployment to Lt. Cols warning us that PFC's and E4's are going to be required to be able to walk into a room with tribal officials, wearing no rank, and present themselves with enough professionalism and competence that they come across as seasoned officers. I don't know one iota of how things work in the real world, don't get me wrong, I just think its important that you understand that on certain fronts you may be coming down too hard on the soldiers for making individual 'cool kid' choices when they're just following their unit SOP. During our CULEX the opposition used our pictures and names to distribute their own propaganda, and to counter our products.

    But its good to understand all of your varying perceptions!

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    Council Member 82redleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoun View Post
    As far as the no name/no rank thing, just understand that its taught as a tactical procedural tool by the instructors at SWCS. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but given what I know about the targeting of SOF soldiers' families by cells here in the states, and the uniqueness of my last name, I get the name tape thing, while the rank thing has been explained by everyone from E5's back from deployment to Lt. Cols warning us that PFC's and E4's are going to be required to be able to walk into a room with tribal officials, wearing no rank, and present themselves with enough professionalism and competence that they come across as seasoned officers. I don't know one iota of how things work in the real world, don't get me wrong, I just think its important that you understand that on certain fronts you may be coming down too hard on the soldiers for making individual 'cool kid' choices when they're just following their unit SOP. During our CULEX the opposition used our pictures and names to distribute their own propaganda, and to counter our products.

    But its good to understand all of your varying perceptions!
    Your AIT may have taught you that, but generally speaking, a PFC or SPC won't be doing that- the PL or CO CDR will. The PFC or SPC will be there to support.

    I'm not talking about a going without a nametape, or wearing a different name outside the wire- in my experience, its over the top, but whatever. Our HCT guys do it, too. What I'm talking about is NO, absolutely zero, patches, US ARMY, anything, except maybe some BS pirate patch, "becuase I have to blend in" (newsflash, you just got out of a HMMWV, you don't blend it), which, combined with a Grizzly Adams beard on the FOB (since you only went out for a leaflet drop, and the BN CDR's KLE), and absolute disregard for directed uniform standards, discredits your entire operation

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    pirate patches? you're kidding. thats kinda funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ODB View Post
    Sorry to admit this but it is not the officers job to enforce uniform adherence.
    That is really what I was getting at when I inadvertently diverted this thread down the uniform rabbit hole. On my last deployment, a JSOTF commander was personally screening photos taken by embedded COMCAM personnel before the photos were sent higher. His primary concern: cuffed sleeves, sideburns, and other random uniform infractions. The reason for his concern: someone higher up would get upset about said infractions. It is, imo, a ridiculous situation when an SF LTC feels that he needs to pay such attention to such minutia. This was a very laid back, very effective commander. He would not have focused so much attention on this foolishness unless there was significant emphasis on it from higher up because he admittedly did not care about the issue otherwise.

    I cannot prove it, but I have a nagging suspicion that the folks up higher were not concerned about practical issues associated with cuffed sleeves, such as hot brass. They were concerned about appearances, even though the photos were taken on raids or during training that occurred within an IA compound, away from prying eyes. And we can all argue about dangers of cuffed sleeves, but it seems reasonable to me to let a E-8 team sergeant dictate such minutia. The Colonels and Generals aren't doing their jobs if they're wetting their pants over this stuff.

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