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Thread: How to build a State in a non State environment?

  1. #121
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    Default Musings on Iraq

    The Musings on Iraq blog carries an interview with me on the Iraqi provincial political.administrative structure that provides a few maps to explain the volatile administrative background we were all trying to construct around in Iraq.

    http://musingsoniraq.blogspot.com

    Afghan readers might seen the same underlying Ottoman/Post-Ottoman structures, but applied to a different geography.

    The Ottoman villayet systems actually were copied from the Persian, so it's basic stuff.

    I'd enjoy any comments.

    Steve

  2. #122
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default The whole Middle East and much of South Asia

    were copied from the Persian. Not very well, but copied.

    A rudimentary understanding of the Persians leads to basic knowledge of the ME. If a westerner has that, then he or she knows it is, as they say, a nice place to visit -- but you wouldn't want to live there. Yet we try. Foolishly. In hopes of changing 5,000 years of history ???

    Whoops. Left out the reason I posted in the first place:

    Good interview, Steve -- very informative. Depressing on the US action level but informative...
    Last edited by Ken White; 02-04-2011 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Addedndum

  3. #123
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    Default Not very well copied.

    Ken:

    Good to remember that Lost in Translation is not a term we created.

    Baghdad's "House of Wisdom", arguably the first university in the world, was created for the express purpose of trying to translate great persian, sanskrit and other works.

    Greta scholars there may have had the time to spend a lot of attention to the translations, but no Wikipedia at their fingertips for cross-reference. No doubt, a lot was lost in translation.

    Steve

  4. #124
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    In my view, building a viable state in any environment first requires a census; including but not limited to the number of families, youth, resources, property divisions, ethnic groups, and so on. Taxes can't be levied without knowing what the people own and in what quantity. Soldier's can't be drafted without knowing how man able-bodied men are around. Agreements can't be made with local power-brokers without knowing the source of their wealth and influence. Internal conflicts cannot be understood without knowing the economic and political divisions and their underlying drivers. Nor do I think that a census assumes effective power already asserted over the areas studied. William the Conquerer commissioned a census immediately after completing his conquest of England. And Alexander the Great collected census data on his future conquests through the contacts with foriegn merchants and diplomats. After a census is completed, the power elite can assess its strengths and weaknesses, identify obstacles to power consolidation, and move forward confidently. The political environment must be thoroughly understood before any party attempts to successfully navigate it.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    I suspect that the primary purpose for census, then and now, is to provide the taxing party with a reference point to assess how big the turnip is that they are squeezing the blood out of.

    As to "building states," I would think the first question would be "Why is there no state here to begin with?" Once one understands that, then perhaps they could figure out how to modify their own procedures to better interact with the form of governance that does exist; or if there is indeed some room for improvement, what manner of improvements might best serve the noted shortfalls within the context of that particular culture.

    Otherwise, I would chalk "state building" up as an idea that sounds good, but in practicality is probably not the cure for every problem out there.
    Robert C. Jones
    Intellectus Supra Scientia
    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

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    Pride: ditto, thus the Domesday Book. Once you occupy a place, you go and count everything in it.

    Bob: I think it would be presumptuous, as Spaniards did in South America, and we in the North, that there are, were, or would ever be any places for which some previous governing/ownership structure did not exist before we got there. Much easier to work, and/or rebuild pre-existing systems thatn to try to invent and impose something from scratch.

    Trouble is that, sometimes, we actually have to do our homework to help the remnant post-conflict survivors to re-connect to what was.

    Steve

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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve the Planner View Post
    Trouble is that, sometimes, we actually have to do our homework to help the remnant post-conflict survivors to re-connect to what was.

    Steve
    We also have cases where conflict has been ongoing for generations and nobody even remembers what once was. It's always easy to fall back on "go back to tribal governance structures", but in many cases these structures have been so heavily compromised by extended conflict and the emergence of other poles of power/force/money that they have little authority left.

    I don't know that anyone has a really credible answer to the "how do we build a state" question, and I suspect that "do we really need to build a state" is often a question that needs to be asked first.

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    Dayuhan:

    Agree with that, but, when you start going out to reconnect/reconstruct things, the first part is to make sure there is something to reconnect to, and the second is to create things that, at the least, have some relationship to viable indigenous structures.

    Certainly, some of the old stuff could be toxic, especially if it was the cause of the conflicts. Still, there are inherent basic structures and organizing principles that have to be recognized.

    In Iraq, I can map it with recorded documents and official maps, but, how much of its is real, relevant? Maybe 90% because the maps and areas were typically disputed, trying to accomplish things through legislation that could not be accomplished on the ground, etc...

    The great Harvey Korman quote from Mel Brooks' Blazing Saddles, as the governor and RR barons try to steal the rights of way: "All that stands between us and that valuable property are....(wait for it)...the rightful owners!"

    Ground truth and formal structures are often two different things, like Bob's recently amended take, in lieu of constitutions: "practicality is probably not a cure..."

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    Two points to throw out for consideration.

    First, if you are going to conduct a census why not ask some pertinent questions like "Where do you feel the authority to rule comes from?" This might give you and idea of the type of government that the people will listen to based how what they feel is the source of legitimacy. I can expand, but not without more space.

    Second. It really does not matter what their history is initially. Hell, you can create their history for them. What matters is what they need out of a government. That is what you need to determine. It might be that they need a connection, to feel like they are part of something, in which case you may have to recreate what was. But it may also be that they are simply looking to survive.
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

    Jon Osterman/Dr. Manhattan
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