SMALL WARS COUNCIL
Go Back   Small Wars Council > Conflicts -- Current & Future > Other, By Region > Middle East

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 4 Days Ago   #601
CrowBat
Council Member
 
CrowBat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Haxbach, Schnurliland
Posts: 140
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
...Neither does random internet ranting from self-proclaimed authorities, something you might want to remember before embarking on lectures.
Don't worry: I have realized already months ago there is no point in 'lecturing' you about anything at all. It's not only that you can't learn: you refuse learning even from your own mistakes - or mistakes of your own government, to be more precise - so what would be the point?

Quote:
Of course it has... but the terrorists that flock there are shooting at each other, not at us or our proxies & other blahblah...
You see, this is a typical example of you working hard on finding excuse No. 745.396 for all the nonsense Washington is doing in Syria.

You're asking since when is the USA responsible for protection of civilians...

Whether this is the official US policy or whatever else, it doesn't matter: it's not me who is declaring the USA for 'craddle of democracy', 'supporting anybody struggling for freedom and democracy' and all other BS of that sort. That's simply the image emitted by the USA since decades. That image has created specific expectations from specific people outside the USA: you can now ignore this and explain it for irrelevant, and no part of your policy, and whatever other nonsense, but this is the soup the USA have created. Therefore, don't get surprised when there are plenty of people disapointed to realize the USA do not act that way in reality - and then turning against the USA as as result.

In 1989, the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan which they have sysematically ruined in 10 years of war. They've left behind a week 'central' government, opposed by US/Saudi sponsored insurgency, run by Pakistan. Instead of doing something to rebuild the country, the USA have left Afghanistan at mercy of Pakistani (and other) Saudi-sponsored Islamists - with well known results. What a surprise then, that 20+ years later Afghanistan is still the same quagmire....

In 1991, the USA kicked Iraq out of Kuwait, and then called Iraqis to raise against Saddam. The Iraqis did so, but did not receive any kind of support: Saddam was left free to gas Shi'a in southern Iraq and Kurds in the north. When, 10 years later, the USA finally came to the idea to remove Saddam, Americans were ah so greatly surprised the Iraqis were not the least pleased about their late appearance....

The uprising in Libya received Western/NATO+friends support within 2 months of breaking out. It was over within 8 months, with dictatorship removed. Correspondingly, there was no time for Wahhabists (or similars) to gain a foothold, not to talk about 'taking over' the insurgency. Instead, Libya now has a pro-Western government. Surely, it's going to need another 10-15 years to get all of its troubles sorted out, but its biggest problem is out of the way.

The uprising in Syria is now more than 3 years old. It never received any kind of serious Western support (or if, then only in the last few weeks), with the result of the Wahhabists (and/or similars) being given all the time not only to gain a foothold, but indeed nearly collapse the insurgency 'from within'. Result: none of problems from 2011 has been removed, the country is in tatters for decades, unlikely to regain any semblance of sovereignity, full of extremists of all sorts, harbouring heavy IRGC-QF presence etc., and therefore likely to remain a main source of troubles for the time of our lifes.

I'm begging you, Dayuhan: PLEASE, do not 'learn' anything at all from all of these. Come back with your silly babbling about the lack of proxies in Syria, about the lack of cohesion within Syrian insurgency, and then go on listing the remaining 745.394 of your cheap excuses.

But, and whether you accept them or not, and no matter how much you refuse to accept them, these are bottom line facts. That's where the core of the issue - namely utter stupidity of decision-makers in Washington - lies; and that's all I have to say to you any more.

Feel free to come back with excuse 745.397 too, no problem: until you offer a sign of realization of what I'm telling you all the time, I'll just click on 'ignore'.

Last edited by CrowBat; 4 Days Ago at 08:34 AM.
CrowBat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4 Days Ago   #602
CrowBat
Council Member
 
CrowBat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Haxbach, Schnurliland
Posts: 140
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMA View Post
Back in 2012 I said the Syrian rebels should not be armed. Here

The result of arming the rebels is plain for all to see. The genie is out of the bottle. Idiots.
I have no problems with the DC deciding 'do not arm the insurgents'.

But then at least the same DC could come to its senses and stay completely out of the situation. After all - just ask Dayuhan, he'll be happy to explain it to lenght - there are 745.396 (probably 745.397 meanwhile) reasons to stay out of there.

Instead, they are following the WORST POSSIBLE SOLUTION, which is, 'well, we're going to arm them, a little bit', and doing so while doing even more to hinder others from 'arming the insurgents'. Coupled with bi-products of such behaviour (see 'let the Iranians kill insurgents' and see 'let Russians re-arm the regime, Iranians are bledding themselves to death by paying the bill'), that's just resulting in ever more suffering and destruction.

As such, effectivelly, that cannot but result with 'creating your own enemy of tomorrow' - which is insane, to put it mildly.
CrowBat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4 Days Ago   #603
JMA
Council Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Durban, South Africa
Posts: 3,573
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowBat View Post
Don't worry: I have realized already months ago there is no point in 'lecturing' you about anything at all. It's not only that you can't learn: you refuse learning even from your own mistakes - or mistakes of your own government, to be more precise - so what would be the point?
Exactly, so don't feed the ....
__________________
But I think I have said enough to show that, as the Manual says, while the principles of war remain unchanged, “The tactics and characteristics of the inhabitants and the nature of the theater of operations may necessitate considerable modification in the method” of their application to warfare on the North-West Frontier of India. – Gen Sir Andrew Skeen 1932
JMA is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 4 Days Ago   #604
JMA
Council Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Durban, South Africa
Posts: 3,573
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowBat View Post
I have no problems with the DC deciding 'do not arm the insurgents'.
Well who knows what the WH is thinking? Does anyone? Do they themselves?

See this:

Advanced U.S. Weapons Flow to Syrian Rebels

Quote:
But then at least the same DC could come to its senses and stay completely out of the situation.
Too late... up to their elbows in blood and getting deeper. Clearly the situation is now so serious and complex that its beyond the WH... and probably the 'analysts' at the CIA too.

Quote:
After all - just ask Dayuhan, he'll be happy to explain it to lenght - there are 745.396 (probably 745.397 meanwhile) reasons to stay out of there.
I call that the 'condom solution' ... instead of one size fits all, rather one policy (in this case hiding under your bed) fits all situations regardless of the situation on the ground.

Quote:
Instead, they are following the WORST POSSIBLE SOLUTION, which is, 'well, we're going to arm them, a little bit', and doing so while doing even more to hinder others from 'arming the insurgents'. Coupled with bi-products of such behaviour (see 'let the Iranians kill insurgents' and see 'let Russians re-arm the regime, Iranians are bledding themselves to death by paying the bill'), that's just resulting in ever more suffering and destruction.

As such, effectivelly, that cannot but result with 'creating your own enemy of tomorrow' - which is insane, to put it mildly.
This, I suggest, is as a result of having no policy to start with. The situation has spun out of control and we now see a misguided and misdirected patch-job in a desperate attempt to control the damage.

The situation should never have got to this... it now demands action which will be resisted by Russia... which means the US won't do it.
__________________
But I think I have said enough to show that, as the Manual says, while the principles of war remain unchanged, “The tactics and characteristics of the inhabitants and the nature of the theater of operations may necessitate considerable modification in the method” of their application to warfare on the North-West Frontier of India. – Gen Sir Andrew Skeen 1932
JMA is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 4 Days Ago   #605
CrowBat
Council Member
 
CrowBat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Haxbach, Schnurliland
Posts: 140
Default

Yup. And to paraphrase certain ex Secretary of State, and in relation to your earlier post about ideas on 'China should do it': 'You can't force your bank to...' - launch (or finance) an armed intervention in Syria.

Really, I haven't been to the USA and the DC for some eight years or so. But if this - and other ideas of similar 'brilliance' aired from there in recent years can be taken as anything as indication of way people there are thinking...

...oh boy, we're up to eyebrows deep in... erm...trouble.
CrowBat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3 Days Ago   #606
JMA
Council Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Durban, South Africa
Posts: 3,573
Default

Canadian-funded study explores how foreign fighters in Syria use social media

Quote:
Based on the data, the report found that a large number of foreign fighters receive their information about the Syrian conflict through so-called disseminators – “unaffiliated but broadly sympathetic individuals who can sometimes appear to offer moral and intellectual support to jihadist opposition groups.”
__________________
But I think I have said enough to show that, as the Manual says, while the principles of war remain unchanged, “The tactics and characteristics of the inhabitants and the nature of the theater of operations may necessitate considerable modification in the method” of their application to warfare on the North-West Frontier of India. – Gen Sir Andrew Skeen 1932
JMA is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 3 Days Ago   #607
wm
Council Member
 
wm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: On the Lunatic Fringe
Posts: 1,201
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMA View Post
Canadian-funded study explores how foreign fighters in Syria use social media
Quote:
Based on the data, the report found that a large number of foreign fighters receive their information about the Syrian conflict through so-called disseminators – “unaffiliated but broadly sympathetic individuals who can sometimes appear to offer moral and intellectual support to jihadist opposition groups.”
What I find most interesting is this quotation from the article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTVNews.ca
ICSR has previously reported that up to 2,800 of foreign fighters in Syria are of European or western nationality.

The report gives a breakdown of the foreign fighters’ country of origin based on their sample: Australians, Canadians and Americans together accounted for 5.3 per cent, while fighters from the United Kingdom made up the highest number of foreign fighters.
United Kingdom: 17.9 per cent
France: 11.6 per cent
Germany: 11.1 per cent
Sweden: 10 per cent
Belgium: 8.9 per cent
This set of statistics seems to support the following claim made recently in this thread--that Syria's conflict is drawing the loons there rather than their staying and acting out at home. I've paraphrased, but the gist is the same I think. The original wording is found at post 590 of this thread
__________________
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
The greatest educational dogma is also its greatest fallacy: the belief that what must be learned can necessarily be taught. — Sydney J. Harris
wm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3 Days Ago   #608
JMA
Council Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Durban, South Africa
Posts: 3,573
Default

Besieged and terrified … and the food is about to run out for Damascus refugees

Quote:
Syrian blockade of Yarmouk refugee camp raises fears for 18,000 people left starving inside, with some already resorting to eating leaves and animal feed
Who gives a rats ass about the starving kids I hear from the so-called great and civilised nations of the world.

How do they sleep at night?
__________________
But I think I have said enough to show that, as the Manual says, while the principles of war remain unchanged, “The tactics and characteristics of the inhabitants and the nature of the theater of operations may necessitate considerable modification in the method” of their application to warfare on the North-West Frontier of India. – Gen Sir Andrew Skeen 1932

Last edited by JMA; 3 Days Ago at 09:53 PM.
JMA is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23 Hours Ago   #609
CrowBat
Council Member
 
CrowBat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Haxbach, Schnurliland
Posts: 140
Default

Nobody. That's why it's so sillent here: presently, everybody and his/her next kin is busy thinking about reason 745.398 - related to ignoring repeated use of chemical weapons by regime in Idlib area (should have something to do with supposed 'red lines'), the last few days...
CrowBat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 Hours Ago   #610
wm
Council Member
 
wm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: On the Lunatic Fringe
Posts: 1,201
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowBat View Post
Nobody. That's why it's so sillent here: presently, everybody and his/her next kin is busy thinking about reason 745.398 - related to ignoring repeated use of chemical weapons by regime in Idlib area (should have something to do with supposed 'red lines'), the last few days...
Lots of people care. They just happen to prioritize their national blood and treasure differently than others might like. Who helped Biafra or Bangladesh?
__________________
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
The greatest educational dogma is also its greatest fallacy: the belief that what must be learned can necessarily be taught. — Sydney J. Harris
wm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 Hours Ago   #611
Wyatt
Council Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 45
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowBat View Post
Nobody. That's why it's so sillent here: presently, everybody and his/her next kin is busy thinking about reason 745.398 - related to ignoring repeated use of chemical weapons by regime in Idlib area (should have something to do with supposed 'red lines'), the last few days...
I don't see Austrians or South Africans clamoring to send their fighting men into the fray, so why shout so loudly? Would you volunteer your sons (figurative or literal) for this war?
Wyatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 Hours Ago   #612
Wyatt
Council Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 45
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyatt View Post
I don't see Austrians or South Africans clamoring to send their fighting men into the fray, so why shout so loudly? Would you volunteer your sons (figurative or literal) for this war?
Edited to add.

This question was to far too harsh and upset the very constitution of our most esteemed commonwealth friend. For that I shall humbly submit the required text and nix my crude comeuppance in the bud.

"that having reviewed earlier posts by JMA I note that nowhere did he advocate boots on the ground so my comment on his sons was out of line. My apologies."
<--- I even included your quotation marks!

As far as this.... "I'll put money on it that you don't have the balls or the integrity to do it"

Nous Defions!

PM again for my PayPal info.
Wyatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 Hours Ago   #613
Dayuhan
Council Member
 
Dayuhan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Latitude 17° 5' 11N, Longitude 120° 54' 24E, altitude 1499m. Right where I want to be.
Posts: 2,912
Default

In case you're curious about what JMA actually did advocate, it's here:

http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...=12821&page=12

Quote:
Two cruise missiles is all it will take...
With this as clarification:

Quote:
Don't think you were there when I first raised this in the 'Ivory Coast' thread, so here we go:

Quote:
It is time to stop pussy-footing around and apply JMA's 3-Cruise-Missile-Option.

With some sections of the army wavering (it appears) the first missile targets the barracks of the most loyal unit to Gbagbo - do it now, tomorrow.

The second with 12 hours warning targets the current location of Gbagbo himself - he won't be there but will get the message strength 5.

Thereafter the word is put out that there's a $1m for the person who provides Gbagbo's location as a target for the third missile.
JMA never explained what he expected the outcome of this proposed action to be, so on that score your guess is as good as mine.

My own guess is that the outcome would have been Assad going to ground, his army moving out of their barracks and dispersing their assets, and a combined message telling us to stick our demands where the sun don't shine. That of course would leave us with a choice between backing down and escalating, neither appealing.

Obviously nobody knows what would have happened if... but somehow that proposal seemed to me unlikely to achieve much.

I mention it only on the principle that people who accuse others of "getting it wrong" really ought to be able to offer a convincing suggestion of what "getting it right" would have been.
__________________
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

H.L. Mencken
Dayuhan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 6 Hours Ago   #614
CrowBat
Council Member
 
CrowBat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Haxbach, Schnurliland
Posts: 140
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wm View Post
Lots of people care. They just happen to prioritize their national blood and treasure differently than others might like. Who helped Biafra or Bangladesh?
Did I start talking about 'red lines'?

And re. Biafra: nobody (that is, at least no nation officially sided with separatists), and in Bangladesh it was India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyatt
I don't see Austrians or South Africans clamoring to send their fighting men into the fray, so why shout so loudly? Would you volunteer your sons (figurative or literal) for this war?
Let me see...

Did Austria or South Africa say, 'Bashar, if you use chemical weapons, that's a red line'? Does either of the two have bases in about 150 countries and territories around the globe, and is either claiming to be the 'cradle of democracy' or is eager to 'support anybody fighting against terrorism'?

I moved out of Vienna a few years ago, so might not be entirely current with latest developments: perhaps I've missed or have forgotten something, so please feel free to correct me.

That said, sure: the last I recall, our nifty FM and MOD have withdrawn our 'peacekeepers' from the UN-contingent on the (Syrian side) of armistice lines on the Golan because they saw them under a threat. They did so at the first sign of trouble there, so yes: I agree that they're sissies (our troops less so, see their deployment in Chad).

Prior to that, they (the 2nd Bn) were there since something like 40 years, spending most of the time drinking themselves into unconsciousness - because of boredom. For what purpose, nobody really knows. Supposedly, they were 'protecting peace'; actually, they were establishing de-facto Israeli occupation and annexation of the Golan Heights. The latter is not recognized even by the DC, but who cares? De-facto is certainly perfectly enough for everybody with corresponding interests.

So, obviously, I'm very supportive of such 'meaningful' deployments. So much so, I'm probably the next to get suspended for posting sarcastic commentary.

And the South Africans... oh my, indeed, they are the last to send their troops into the fray. For example, they didn't do so in the DRC, and even less so in the CAR. And they didn't do so in the DRC for example, because the DC is supporting a genocidal regime in Kigali, and thus - indirectly - the M23 'insurgents/rebels', while at the same time the SOCOM and AFRICOM are burning billions of US-taxpayer's money for sending planes and troops there, for which nobody can say what to hell are they doing there (then, ho-hum, they aren't doing anything at all, except landing, inspecting, walking around, disappearing in the jungle etc.).

But sure, I should not come to the idea to connect that 'military operation' with taking over the illegal extraction of Congolese koltan, gold and diamonds from Rwandans, and/or Israeli diamond-handlers.

Well, whatever they're doing there, it's certainly 'far more important' and 'of crucial national interest' for the USA - than Syria is ever going to be. Damn, here's the idea: why not send South African troops to Syria? That way they could be as curbed as much as anybody else trying to help the insurgency there...

Hope, I've got everything right and to your full satisfaction here.
CrowBat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6 Hours Ago   #615
CrowBat
Council Member
 
CrowBat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Haxbach, Schnurliland
Posts: 140
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyatt View Post
Edited to add.

This question was to far too harsh...
Why 'far too harsh'? Because you missed South African deployments to the CAR and the DRC, or because you're supposing that I'm proud of Austrian government?

Hey, yesterday the Austrian government decided to accept 40 refugees from Syria. Wow. For a fierce patriot like me, that's almost as much as somebody else declaring 'red lines' - and then swiftly forgetting about them. I now have every imaginable reason to be proud... to be _extremely_ proud... of 'my' government, isn't that so?

Last edited by CrowBat; 6 Hours Ago at 08:08 AM.
CrowBat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
air power, al qaeda, chemical weapons, civil war, croatia, fsa, israel, jordan, lebanon, peacekeeping, syria, terrorism, turkey, wmd

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Israel confirms talks with Syria JJackson Middle East 46 10-17-2011 09:22 PM
US troops conduct op inside Syria? Entropy The Whole News 35 11-04-2008 11:33 PM
Israel Plans for War with Iran and Syria SWJED Middle East 10 11-01-2006 09:29 PM
Abu Bakar Bashir Released Soon SWJED Intelligence 1 06-11-2006 11:16 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7. ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Registered Users are solely responsible for their messages.
Operated by, and site design © 2005-2009, Small Wars Foundation