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Old 08-19-2010   #21
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Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
we need a new kind of Revolution to Tax Corporations oversees profits that out source American jobs.
There is no such thing as an "American job". A job is only yours, as an individual or as a nation, if you can perform the function more efficiently than the other guy. If you penalize American enterprises by forcing them to hire less efficient labor, the enterprise goes out of business and produces no jobs at all.

Sure, you can force American corporations to produce at home. The product will be too expensive to sell, nobody will buy it, and the jobs disappear anyway. Not a solution. Protectionism never is.
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Old 08-22-2010   #22
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There is no such thing as an "American job". A job is only yours, as an individual or as a nation, if you can perform the function more efficiently than the other guy. If you penalize American enterprises by forcing them to hire less efficient labor, the enterprise goes out of business and produces no jobs at all.

Sure, you can force American corporations to produce at home. The product will be too expensive to sell, nobody will buy it, and the jobs disappear anyway. Not a solution. Protectionism never is.
Pure Gobbsmackery, why is it every other country is allowed to engage in protectionism but we can't? China has a nationalized banking system that will provide any amount of money needed to allow it's industries to produce at below market rates in order for it to maintain a competitive advantage, and it also has a government policy of slave labor. You cannot defend against that without counter policies to protect our jobs (USA) and industries.
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Old 09-06-2010   #23
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Default Collapse Of American Liberalism

Link to Real News Network interview.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcCf9mzuLd4&feature=sub
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Old 09-06-2010   #24
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Sure, you can force American corporations to produce at home. The product will be too expensive to sell, nobody will buy it, and the jobs disappear anyway. Not a solution. Protectionism never is.
Sure it is... tax imports... and make imports cost the same as locally made... then let the buyer choose.

My mother in law uses paint brushes once, its cheaper and easier to buy new ones from China each time. My kid gets more toys a year than i had in my life, because they are all so cheap....

We have become quantity consumers, not quality consumers.

If prices became higher due to protectionism, I would be forced to look after my stuff more...

Last week i went to the gym and forgot my Gym shoes. Instead of driving home to get them i bought a cheap pair at a shop next to the gym... Blush...

20 Years ago shoes were worth something, kids did not discard toys after a week... and you cleaned paintbrushes... cheap imports change a lot...
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Old 09-06-2010   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayuhan

Sure, you can force American corporations to produce at home. The product will be too expensive to sell, nobody will buy it, and the jobs disappear anyway. Not a solution. Protectionism never is.
Sure it is... tax imports... and make imports cost the same as locally made... then let the buyer choose.

My mother in law uses paint brushes once, its cheaper and easier to buy new ones from China each time. My kid gets more toys a year than i had in my life, because they are all so cheap....

We have become quantity consumers, not quality consumers.

If prices became higher due to protectionism, I would be forced to look after my stuff more...

Last week i went to the gym and forgot my Gym shoes. Instead of driving home to get them i bought a cheap pair at a shop next to the gym... Blush...

20 Years ago shoes were worth something, kids did not discard toys after a week... and you cleaned paintbrushes... cheap imports change a lot...
Yes but these protectionist measures will then simply be followed by retaliation protectionist measures by countries who are subject to your measures, leading to a collapse of your export sector and by extension international trade.
also only producing for an internal market could lead to a massively reduced demand of your products and this will result in economic recession/downgrading and although this effect could be limited in large countries who have large internal markets, small and export aimed countries dont have such large internal markets and this would cause an even bigger economic recession in those countries.
And then we are not yet speaking about the political/social consequences of such a recession.
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Old 09-06-2010   #26
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Yes but these protectionist measures will then simply be followed by retaliation protectionist measures by countries who are subject to your measures, leading to a collapse of your export sector and by extension international trade.
I am missing something here...... If AMERICANS cannot afford to buy US products and buy from China.... who is buying the US products?

From what I see, other countires only buy what they cannot make themselves... China may buy steel or wood... and will continue to buy... but they are not going to buy made in USA cheap transistors or kiddies toys....

The USA does not NEED Chinese Ghetto blasters and kids toys, they buy them because they are cheap... china however NEEDS raw products from other countries?

I am no economist, so Imay be a bit ahead of myself here...

Last edited by davidbfpo; 09-06-2010 at 09:17 PM. Reason: Fix quote so it works
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Old 09-06-2010   #27
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I am missing something here...... If AMERICANS cannot afford to buy US products and buy from China.... who is buying the US products?

From what I see, other countires only buy what they cannot make themselves... China may buy steel or wood... and will continue to buy... but they are not going to buy made in USA cheap transistors or kiddies toys....

The USA does not NEED Chinese Ghetto blasters and kids toys, they buy them because they are cheap... china however NEEDS raw products from other countries?

I am no economist, so Imay be a bit ahead of myself here...
Ok im not an expert on what the US exports and imports as im from Belgium so i cant really think of any examples to support my claim, anyways lets start.

consumers in a somewhat capitalist country dont only choose which products they are gonna buy acording to what they can afford what they cant, competition and thus the fact they can choose between several somewhat similar products.
So US consumers buy chinese kiddy toys because they have the best quality/price ratio.
On the other hand US producers might be able to produce and export another product at a better price/quality ratio then chinese producers and thus will be exporting to China.
This will then lead to specialisation of certain countries in certain sectors and will eventually lead to an increased production, employment and more economical activity (its called the law of ricardo i think).

Also you should not group all the products a country produces, there is no single market of "all products", similar products from all over the world are grouped in markets that have vastly different dynamics according to production proccesses and competition from other markets.
Also of note is that capitalistic systems work along a system of offer and demand, so if there is no demand for a product then there will be no offer.
And off course the fact that "countries" in general dont import or export, private citizens do it and they can only be "coached" by governements by using taxes and subsidies, but these private citizens still work for the acquirement of profit.

Also of note is that protectionist measures to strengthen your domestic economy is not something that only involves China, it involves every country that the US imports to or exports from, now a change in the export/import dynamics could not be that bad in the case of one country, but it might be devestating if done between other countries, say Europe and US.

So that was my little rant about international trade, i am also not an economist but in middle school i specialized in economics and this was practicly what i understood from that course, so if somebody who contrary to me actually knows what he is talking about, and sees im wrong please correct me.
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Old 09-06-2010   #28
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I am missing something here...... If AMERICANS cannot afford to buy US products and buy from China.... who is buying the US products?
The competitiveness varies between sectors and even between corporations and products.

Part of the problem is that not enough foreigners buy U.S. products, though.
The trade balance deficit (services balance included) is on the order of $ 30-60 billion per month. That's by how much the U.S. lives beyond its means.
A even more grave view would add to this the monthly loss of capital stock.

In the end, U.S. consumers need either to learn to live with about 4/5th of the goods consumption or U.S. industry output needs to grow by about 25%.

More consumption is certainly not the way to go, more savings = investment and moderate consumption is the way to go. The U.S. is in a similar situation as after 1945; it needs a time of hardships to get back on track for there's no easy way out of the economic mess.
The top income tax bracket in the 50's had a tax rate of about 90% (during the Republican presidency of Eisenhower!).
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Old 09-07-2010   #29
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Sure it is... tax imports... and make imports cost the same as locally made... then let the buyer choose.

My mother in law uses paint brushes once, its cheaper and easier to buy new ones from China each time. My kid gets more toys a year than i had in my life, because they are all so cheap....

Last week i went to the gym and forgot my Gym shoes. Instead of driving home to get them i bought a cheap pair at a shop next to the gym... Blush...
You can't tax imported toys and shoes until they cost as much as local products, because there aren't any local products. These manufacturing lines moved out of the US decades ago, and nobody ever really missed them. It's really not possible to do low-skill labor-intensive manufacturing at US wages... the products would cost more than anybody would pay for them and the people making them would go out of business. People with lower incomes would also kick up a bit of a fuss if prices of items like clothes and children's toys suddenly quadrupled.

Protection is best understood as a subsidy, paid by the consumer. In an emerging economy it can be an effective way to shelter an industry that has the potential to be competitive but needs space to get established and achieve an economy of scale. Very hard to justify protection in a mature economy, unless we decide that we want consumers to perpetually subsidize non-competitive industries.

The problem, of course, is that everybody thinks their job and their industry is important enough to be subsidized... but if we subsidize everybody there's nobody left to pay the subsidy.

Treating non-competitiveness with protection is like treating malaria with paracetamol. You may push that fever down briefly, but you're not treating the cause. Why are we not competitive? Start with an education system that thinks competition is evil and produces more liberal arts graduates than the economy can possibly absorb, while even at close to 10% unemployment we have severe shortages of machinists, precision welders, and other skilled trades. Finish with an entitlement culture that has us convinced that wages should not be proportional to cost of a middle class lifestyle, not to the value of the product or service being produced. Fill in the space in between.

Our problem isn't them furriners. Our problem is us. We need to compete.

The trade deficit comes largely down to two issues. First is energy imports, which is not likely to change in the immediate future. Second, and more important, is a currency that has held an artificially inflated value, sometimes wildly inflated, for most of the time since WW2. That has been to some extent corrected, though IMO the dollar should still fall a bit more. It will take some time for that correction to show any material effect on the economy, though: the impact of 6 decades of distortion isn't reversed overnight.
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Old 09-07-2010   #30
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Default Interview Part 2

Part 2 of the interview "The Collapse Of Liberalism" or how to deconstruct the system.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nelGtSOimwQ
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Old 09-07-2010   #31
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This is an informal interview/lecture by Paul Jay of the Real News Network from 2008! done in the country of Estonia. Interesting stuff especially about what President Obama really stands for as opposed to the manufactured media image. Also has some points about the source of Terrorism being Saudi Arabia and dating back to WW2. Interesting to see how accurate he was of what was to come.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIeS3FlK1R4
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Old 09-07-2010   #32
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Now that we've agreed that an armed revolution in the U.S. is unlikely to be happening any time soon, what does this thread have to do with military affairs?
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Old 09-08-2010   #33
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Now that we've agreed that an armed revolution in the U.S. is unlikely to be happening any time soon, what does this thread have to do with military affairs?
It dosen't that is why it is posted under "The Whole News" section.

"The Whole News Post and debate the news; good, bad and ugly. News ignored by the mainstream media especially welcomed here."

Last edited by slapout9; 09-08-2010 at 12:40 AM. Reason: stuff
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Old 09-08-2010   #34
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Default Dude, you are reinforcing the stereotype

Man, I love Alabama. After living in Iowa and California growing up, the east coast going to school, and multiple places in the world with Uncle Sam, I can honestly say there's no place I would rather be than sweet home Alabama.

But then you guys gotta start talking like this and putting confederate flags on your truck. You get folks who refuse to vote in a lottery or minor property tax increase that would add an extra $150 a year to build a new $20 milliion high school. They apparently don't realize that Californians pay 1.25% annually on their half million dollar modest home...some $6,250, so that those crazies can build half billion high schools in L.A....not lower Alabama but the real L.A. where my lawyer brother lives/works, traffic is idiotic, illegal aliens are plentiful, only matched by environmental impact studies that deprive farmers of water and destroy perfectly good dams so a few more fish will survive.

And then those left coast geniuses turn around and promise so much in government pensions that the state possibly has half a trillion in unfunded pension obligations. They go so hog wild on home speculation that it in turn drives up public and private pay to the point that businesses can't afford to operate there, especially when workmen's comp is included. Regular folks can't afford the taxes or normal homes that have been inflated near big cities forcing stupidly long commutes.

The inevitable crash occurs so then red states end up partially funding left and right coast stupidity in buying too much house for their income. You are right, that ain't right. They pay so much in interest on those homes that despite big incomes they don't necessarily pay big federal taxes, yet they expect us to bail them out of their own misguided purchase.

The other dumb thing in blue states is unions. The other day on TV, a guy was complaining that he had lost his $130,000-with-overtime GM job and was now making 100K less working at Loews. Well, duh dude, your $130K income, outrageous benefits, and huge pension are what put GM in bankruptcy. I refuse to be put on a guilt trip for not "buying American" when union folks demand so much...and get it...and our tax dollars foot the bill.

So when I see all kinds of foreign and multinational corporations being successful in the south, I have a hard time feeling sorry for American manufacturing. I will happily buy a Nissan Sentra made in Smyrna, Tennessee, an American pick-up for horse-happy wife, and my sports car Mazda that at the time was part owned by Ford. And I'm perfectly happy to make less than the coasters because my house is paid for and cost only $65K to build from scratch in 1986. You can make less in the south because it costs less to live here. You can survive as a business here for the same reasons...I know because I had one for 13 years.

It's a global economy and global interdependence in the economic sector helps deter war. So please help me cheerlead for a possible LCS victory by Australian Austal and KC-X win by EADS that also builds darn nice helicopters in Mississippi near where NG builds nice Fire Scout UAS. Did you know that Boeing C-17 workers went on strike? How about the KC-X crying Seattle boys that sent half the 787 production to South Carolina? Now Oshkosh wants to strike after corporate honchos got them crucial orders to keep them afloat at a ridiculously low M-ATV bid price...dumb.

You'll tell me that I don't get it and I'm a carpetbagger. Well, my daughter is hogging a Med School slot in Alabama, something she could never do in California due to greater competition. My son is now at Auburn so we are trying to assimilate. And assimilation is something my daughter endeavors to do sharing one good thing in common with those left coasters. She and an Indian and Pakistani med student are in the same study group and do just fine together. When I visit my Silicon valley former home, I also see plenty of Indians. Pakistanis, and Iranians who aren't threatening jihad and seem to get along with Americans quite well. Alabama has come a long ways from just 40 years ago which is why, when coupled with the Muslim immigrant population that does just fine here, leads me to believe that one day things could get better over yonder...using the U.S. and its well-intentioned Soldiers as a model.

So before even using the "R" word to describe changing government, just be glad you live where you live and a Kia and Hyundai plant are just down the road along with a fine university dressed all in orange. Wanna be like Aivs and be number 2 instead? Soon enough instead of 10 day traffic jams, China will have perpetual ones and even greater smog. They will have fewer younger and more older citizens thanks to the one-chld rule. Eventually wages will rise and some new place in the world will supplant them in making products for Walmart where Americans spend $2 million a week per store. Are you gonna tell me you don't buy from Walmart with all that non-made-in-the USA stuff?

Last edited by Ken White; 09-08-2010 at 06:31 PM. Reason: Edit check
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Old 09-08-2010   #35
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Default This thread has wandered into an unneeded and unwanted political discussion.

For those who wish to post politically oriented comments, there are plenty of web sites out there. This is not one, politics only as pertain directly to small wars or warfare in general.

Thank you.

This thread is locked. CORRECTION: Was locked...

ADDED: On reflection, locking the thread was an over reaction on my part, so I've unlocked it. However it is IMO still an undesirable diversion into purely domestic political territory and there are plenty of sites that encourage that sort of dialogue. This site has not and hopefully will not.

I'll simply ask that future comments and threads devote themselves to warfare related topics and avoid the domestic political scene unless there is a direct relationship to warfare.

Last edited by Ken White; 09-08-2010 at 01:11 PM. Reason: Revison of original
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Old 09-11-2010   #36
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Warning: a couple of bad words are in this video clip!

This is some type of a street interview of Max Kyser(has a Financial News Show) on the threat from Wall Street and possible Middle Class response. Max usually is pretty funny if you have ever watched his shows but this seems to be some pretty serious stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciXw-...ayer_embedded#!
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Old 09-13-2010   #37
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I'll simply ask that future comments and threads devote themselves to warfare related topics and avoid the domestic political scene unless there is a direct relationship to warfare.
The ITG* rantings from either end of the political spectrum across the internetz, where chairborne commandos Cletus & Che Jr. froth over fantasies of picking up a gun while never being closer to a combat zone than their X-Box controller, strike me as just another case of plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

I wonder if F&I Veterans in 1774 or Mexican-American War vets in the summer of 1860 felt the same way. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/...b341ca0fc5.jpg

* Internet Tough Guys
__________________
A scrimmage in a Border Station
A canter down some dark defile
Two thousand pounds of education
Drops to a ten-rupee jezail


http://i.imgur.com/IPT1uLH.jpg
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Old 09-13-2010   #38
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where chairborne commandos Cletus & Che Jr. froth over fantasies of picking up a gun while never being closer to a combat zone than their X-Box controller
* Internet Tough Guys

That is some classic stuff man
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Old 09-14-2010   #39
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Default IMF Warns Of Social Explosion

Link to article on how the IMF warns of Social Unrest due to high unemployment.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...bs-crisis.html
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Old 09-14-2010   #40
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The ITG* rantings from either end of the political spectrum across the internetz, where chairborne commandos Cletus & Che Jr. froth over fantasies of picking up a gun while never being closer to a combat zone than their X-Box controller, strike me as just another case of plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Some incredible graphics are in store for Cletus & Che Jr. with the latest Medal of Honor.
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