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Intelligence What do we know, need to know, and how do we get there?

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Old 10-02-2008   #21
bourbon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite_State View Post
Thanks, haven't looked at that in some time. George Washington was no stranger to the spy game either, he probably is the grandfather of American Intelligence.

There is one evil I dread, and that is, their spies. I could wish, therefore, the most attentive watch be kept . . .

—George Washington, March 24, 1776

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullygoarmy
Even though the book starts out by and repeating throughout the right for Israel to exist as a state, they were instantly labeled as anti-semetic and forced to cancel some of their lectures. As you can imagine, the book received instant fire from pro-Israel lobby groups. Really ashame because the book asks some hard questions and can serve as the basis for some really great discussion points.
My fear is what may happen several presidential election cycles down the road, when a critical mass builds, and the public's eyes are really opened to the depths of Israeli influence on our policy making process. I'm talking about the non book reading, which is most of it, those who don't read wonky rags like The London Review of Books or follow issues like the Middle East or counterintelligence.

I fear potential backlash against Jewish Americans. The Israel lobby would likely argue that potential backlash is exactly why articles Walt and Mearsheimer, and especially Ketchum's need to be suppressed. I would argue that it should be ironed out now to defuze any future scenario.
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Old 10-09-2008   #23
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Originally Posted by Render View Post
snippage...

There might be a few valid reasons for the labels.

JUST
A
FEW,
R
For or against, a bunch of activist websites, blogs, and opinion pages aren't going to change many people minds.

The original article as quoted was filled with heavy citations (trust me when I say that is just as suspect). For or against, the level needed to answer or criticize the Kennedy organizations article must be of at least the same quality.
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Old 10-10-2008   #24
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http://www.hks.harvard.edu/research/...owitzreply.pdf

"In his response, Professor Alan Dershowitz demonstrates that the paper contains three types of major errors: quotations are wrenched out of context, important facts are misstated or omitted; and embarrassingly weak logic is employed. One of the authors of this paper has acknowledged that “none of the evidence represents original documentation or is derived from independent interviews.”

SERIOUSLY,
R
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Old 10-10-2008   #25
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Default There may be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Render View Post
...There might be a few valid reasons for the labels.

JUST
A
FEW,
R
It would be much better if you were to post a comment in your own words to explain why you thought so. Just posting a slew of links that may or may not support a position you appear to espouse is a poor technique and is discouraged here; that kind of stuff belongs on the juvenile political blogs.

It would be appreciated if you'd refrain from the practice in the future.

Thanks

Ken
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Old 10-10-2008   #26
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Rather than wade through the links offered, let me just say that in trying to debate the idea that an Israeli Lobby exists and has extraordinary effect on US policies in the region, offering a series of counterpoint articles from CAMERA or a Neocon like Max Boot is a predictable tactic, one that largely buttresses what the two authors originally had to say.

Central to most of those critics is the idea that it is anti-semitic to criticize Israeli policies in the US. One of Israel's strengths has been an active debate on the very same issues within Israeli society.


It is also useful to look at the authors' rebuttal to what their critics put forward.
Quote:

The Israel Lobby
From John Mearsheimer & Stephen Walt


We wrote ‘The Israel Lobby’ in order to begin a discussion of a subject that had become difficult to address openly in the United States (LRB, 23 March). We knew it was likely to generate a strong reaction, and we are not surprised that some of our critics have chosen to attack our characters or misrepresent our arguments. We have also been gratified by the many positive responses we have received, and by the thoughtful commentary that has begun to emerge in the media and the blogosphere. It is clear that many people – including Jews and Israelis – believe that it is time to have a candid discussion of the US relationship with Israel. It is in that spirit that we engage with the letters responding to our article. We confine ourselves here to the most salient points of dispute.
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Old 10-24-2008   #27
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Former Senior CIA Operative Says Spy Agency, State Dept. Are Antisemitic, By Jeff Stein. Congressional Quarterly: Spy Talk, October 23, 2008.

Quote:
Clare M. Lopez, who spent 20 years as an operative in Africa, Latin America and the Balkans, charged in an interview that "a terrible strain of anti-Semitism...has taken root and grown in the ranks of our State Department and CIA in particular."

"U.S. Middle East policy is woefully misguided, in my opinion. How could it be otherwise?" Lopzez said in an interview with the Canada Free Press web site.

"Thirty-five years of graduates from Saudi-Wahhabi-Salafi-funded Ivy League Middle East Studies programs now occupy top positions throughout our Department of State, Intelligence Community, think tanks, media, and academia itself," Lopez said.
Secretary Rice anti-Israel? Not to sound crass, but its too bad she isn't.

Syria has a proven track record of destroying Salafi Jihadists and provided intelligence that saved American lives in the wake of 9/11. Their cooperation in the reconstruction of Iraq could have easily been secured. So if Secretary Rice were indeed anti-Israel, we would not favoring regime change in Syria and subsequently not be on the side of the same guys responsible for 9/11.
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Old 10-24-2008   #28
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Default I'm a little bit country, I'm a little bit rock'n'roll....

Oddly enough, the folks I've met from State who deploy are apparently neither, to talk to them. Most are too busy protecting their own hide to care about the agit-prop.

But I've met both rabid Pro-Arab and Pro-Israel types who inhabit various analyst and leadership positions and sit on their keesters in the DC area and bloviate....

I'd say the answer is "C", way too many who are radically for one side or the other.
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Old 10-24-2008   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bourbon View Post
Former Senior CIA Operative Says Spy Agency, State Dept. Are Antisemitic, By Jeff Stein. Congressional Quarterly: Spy Talk, October 23, 2008.



Secretary Rice anti-Israel? Not to sound crass, but its too bad she isn't.

Syria has a proven track record of destroying Salafi Jihadists and provided intelligence that saved American lives in the wake of 9/11. Their cooperation in the reconstruction of Iraq could have easily been secured. So if Secretary Rice were indeed anti-Israel, we would not favoring regime change in Syria and subsequently not be on the side of the same guys responsible for 9/11.
Funny she showed up as a center point of discussion on the AKO intelligence discussion email circuit because of this article:

Quote:
Hizballah – and by extension, Iran – owns Lebanon

Former CIA Ops Officer on Hizballah

By W. Thomas Smith Jr. Wednesday, October 22, 2008

Among my sources for a recent piece, “Are We Funding the Lebanese Army or Hizballah?” (Human Events, Oct. 20, 2008), was my friend and colleague, Clare M. Lopez, who – when I mentioned to her my concerns regarding Hizballah’s having wormed its way into the legitimate Lebanese Defense apparatus as an official component of the army – said to me, “It’s actually the other way around. The army now appears to be part of Hizballah.”

Lopez – a former operations officer with the Central Intelligence Agency who is today a widely sought expert in the interconnected realms of strategic policy, counterintelligence, and counterterrorism – clearly understands the dynamics of Lebanon, its strategic importance in the war on terror, and its increasingly dominant kingdom within the state, Hizballah.
My comments were:

Quote:
Many words come to mind but they are not suitable for here.

I am glad she is a former CIA Ops Officer.

Anyone who thinks Hizballah is a direct extension of Iran with no end state or agenda of its own does not understand Lebanon.

Best

Tom
and

Quote:
First I think the article is electioneering hyperbole and I will not go beyond that statement.

Second Lebanon is a microcosm of the Middle East in its ethnic quilt. Agendas fold within agendas and simple just does not apply. Hizballah is a Lebanese--hence Arab--Shia fundamentalist organization that has consistently expanded its social networks in Lebanon even as it expanded its military capacities.

Iran is also complex and its role in Lebanon is not simpy to have a foothold on the Mediterranean. The image of such a geostrategic posture is more valuable than actually trying to maintain such a posture. Certainly Tehran sees benefit in expanding its ties to Hizballah as a challenge to Israel and
the US. But the Iranians are not Arab and that means a lot in just how close those ties can become. To declare that Iran owns Lebanon is simply too simple and certainly too short sighted. Syria tried to own Lebanon and I would hazard a guess that the old school in Syria still want to control Lebanon.

Tom

Last edited by davidbfpo; 10-24-2008 at 08:37 PM. Reason: Shorten quotes
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Old 10-24-2008   #30
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Default Zactly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Odom View Post
...My comments were:

I am glad she is a former CIA Ops Officer.

Anyone who thinks Hizballah is a direct extension of Iran with no end state or agenda of its own does not understand Lebanon.
True on the latter.

On the first, is it just me or are a lot of those 'former' types crawling out of the woodwork saying strange and wonderful things -- that make little sense...
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Old 12-05-2008   #31
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http://www.hks.harvard.edu/research/...owitzreply.pdf

Read it again.

Nobody is debating the existence of AIPAC. That's a pathetically transparent strawman argument.

I showed you where the water is, I cannot force you to drink.

Selil: Note the well known and self admitted biases of the websites (counterpunch, antiwar dot com) that others had mentioned previous to my first comment. They both repeatedly publish the works of known Holocaust deniers. The Cockburn family (counterpunch) has three generations of anti-Semitic history only thinly veiled as anti-Zionism. Justin Raimondo (antiwar) is a 9/11 truther who claims that both the US and Israeli governments commited 9/11.

=

It should also be noted that the Kennedy School pulled its name off that paper, in 2006.R

Last edited by Jedburgh; 12-05-2008 at 11:06 AM. Reason: Removed personal attack.
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Old 12-05-2008   #32
Ken White
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Default In this thread, I earlier asked you be please post comments

I'll just re quote that for you form the 10th of October, 2008:

"It would be much better if you were to post a comment in your own words to explain why you thought so. Just posting a slew of links that may or may not support a position you appear to espouse is a poor technique and is discouraged here; that kind of stuff belongs on the juvenile political blogs.

It would be appreciated if you'd refrain from the practice in the future."

I'm please to not that you did in this posting provide amplifying comment. However, you also attacked another poster and the rule is attack the comment, not the individual. So you get an infraction.
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Old 12-05-2008   #33
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Default May I suggest we avoid threads like this in the future?

May I suggest we avoid threads like this in the future? I very much question the credibility of most of these “articles,” as well as the value of the commentary. If you step back for a second, this thread reads like an average political discussion board with, in general, the same people agreeing with each other, and maybe one or two people getting caught in the middle. The starting point is also typical of so many blogs: a “controversial” book, statement or article. There has been no discourse that is sufficiently rigorous in its research or neutral in its approach, and nothing new or enlightening is being offered. Some of the comments reflect, at best, a polarized view and, at worst, personal bias. It is really unbecoming. I really think everyone needs to step back, take a breather, calm down and separate themselves from the issues for consideration.

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Old 12-05-2008   #34
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This thread has exceeded its useful life. Closed.
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Old 01-27-2009   #35
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Default The Israeli Secret Services & The Struggle Against Terrorism by Ami Pedahzur

Columbia University Press is pleased to announce the publication of The Israeli Secret Services & The Struggle Against Terrorism by Ami Pedahzur, professor of political science and Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Texas.

The book questions Israeli strategy in fighting terrorism, criticizing the use of a "war model," which Pedahzur argues is motivate more by politics than sound strategy.

Please let me know if you would like a review copy of the book.

The author is also available for interviews and to contribute to your site.

Praise for the book:

"Replete with detail, vignettes, and insights, this book provides a unique inside account of the Israeli intelligence and security services' sixty-year-long struggle against terrorism. It is the most comprehensive and authoritative depiction and analysis of this struggle currently available in the English language." — Bruce Hoffman, author of Inside Terrorism

Read more reviews.

About the book:

How successful has Israel's renowned intelligence operation been in stopping terrorist attacks?

While Mossad is known as one of the world's most successful terrorist-fighting organizations, Ami Pedahzur shows that Israel's strict reliance on the elite units of the intelligence community is fundamentally flawed and has not decreased the incidence of Palestinian terrorism. In fact, the diversion of funds and manpower to anti-terrorist activities has put Israel in greater danger from its enemies. The "War model" that Israel has employed, Pedahzur argues, should be replaced by a more defensive model.

An expert on terror and political extremism, Pedahzur analyzes and conveys in vivid detail Israel's past encounters with terrorists, specifically hostage rescue missions, the first and second wars in Lebanon, the challenges of the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinian terrorist groups, and Hezbollah. He brings a rare transparency to Israel's counterterrorist activities, highlighting their successes and failures and the ways in which politics and in-fighting between various services shape Israeli policy toward terrorism. Pedahzur concludes by outlining a strategy for future confrontation that will be relevant not only to Israel but also to other countries that have adopted Israel's intelligence-based model.

"Ami Pedahzur has written an astute, well-documented, and compelling analysis of Israel's reliance on the 'war model' to combat terrorism. Israel's political and military leaders were consistently unable to resist the temptation of dramatic and costly uses of force when modest defensive or conciliatory measures were preferable. This lesson should not be lost on any national policymaker confronted by terrorism." — Martha Crenshaw, Stanford University

About the author

Ami Pedahzur holds a Ph.D. in political science from the University of Haifa where, from 2000 to 2004, he served as a senior fellow at the National Security Studies Center. In 2004 he was a Donald D. Harrington fellow at the University of Texas, and in 2005 became an associate professor in the departments of Government and Middle Eastern Studies. In 2007 Pedahzur joined The Robert S. Strauss Center for International Security and Law at the Lyndon B. Johnson School of Public Affairs and currently serves as associate editor of the journal Studies in Conflict and Terrorism. His books include Suicide Terrorism and The Israeli Response to Jewish Extremism and Violence: Defending Democracy.
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Old 02-17-2010   #36
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Default Israeli Hit Squad? Dubai Police Issue International Warrants

Israeli Hit Squad? Dubai Police Issue International Warrants: 11-Person Team Used Disguises, Fake European Passports in Plot To Kill Top Hamas Leader, by Lara Setrakian and Brian Ross. ABC News, Feb. 16, 2010.
Quote:
All signs point to an Israeli hit squad, using fake passports and elaborate disguises, in the assassination of a top Hamas leader in a Dubai hotel room, according to current and former intelligence officials.

Police in Dubai have issued international arrest warrants for eleven people wanted in the murder of Mahmoud al Mabhouh, a Hamas military commander, who was found dead in his room at the five-star Al Bustan Rotana Hotel in Dubai.
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Old 02-17-2010   #37
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Default The No.1 service?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...passports.html

Trade craft?
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Old 02-17-2010   #38
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Trade craft?
They must have figured the exposure from the cctv into their calculus, right? Perhaps they decided it was still worth it, and that it would send a message to the enemy. Deniability wouldn’t have been much of a factor then.
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Old 02-17-2010   #39
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The video the Dubai police put together is pretty amazing.
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Old 02-17-2010   #40
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If Israeli secret services did this (and they must be top of the list of suspects right now), then this is exceptionally stupid. It reeks of arrogance AND stupidity. What message could be worth this kind of nonsense? Israel may have the self-image of a superpower, but its still a relatively small country and its protectors are not going to take infinite pains for its sake...this seems very stupid to me.
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