Results 1 to 20 of 225

Thread: Haiti (Catch all)

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Brynen View Post
    Sheesh, Tom--we're talking about an aid-to-civil-powers, post-disaster reconstruction and development effort here. As a general rule, killing and terrorizing large groups of folks isn't what we're trying to do.
    No, it isn't what we're trying to do. Why not, though? We've tried all the soft, senstive, caring, hand-wringing, etc., etc., ad nauseam approaches and they _never_ work. Oh, sure, sometimes they'll give the appearance of working, for a while, and usually only a short while.

    I, generally speaking, don't like pimping my books. On the other hand, I hate redoing things that don't need to be redone. The following is from D Minus X, forthcoming:

    “Oh, God,” moaned Adam, seated between Abdi and Gheddi, “what is this?” The boy covered his mouth and nose with his hands and began to cough and sneeze from the thick dust that swirled around the bus. His kidneys were in agony from the pounding they’d taken from the combination of bad shocks and worse road.
    “I believe this is called ‘foreign aid,’” Labaan answered.
    The captive looked confused, and from more than the aftereffects of the drugs he’d been given.
    “Foreign aid,” Labaan repeated, with a sneer. “You know: When guilty feeling Euros and Americans shell out money, ostensibly to help the people, but the money all ends up in the hands of sundry corrupt rulers and their relatives?”
    “I don’t…”
    “Understand?” Labaan stood up and, using the bus seats to hold himself erect against the bouncing, walked to the rear where Adam sat. Abdi moved over to open a space for Labaan to sit.
    “We are travelling on what is supposed to be an all-weather, asphalt highway. Money was budgeted for it, no doubt by a consortium of Europeans and Americans, governmental and nongovernmental, both. No doubt, too, a generous provision for utterly necessary bribes was built in to every bid…well, except maybe for the Americans. For that matter, probably no American concerns bid on the project, since their government is death on paying bribes if they catch someone at it. Such an unrealistic people.”
    If ever someone wore a smile that was three fourth’s sadness, that someone was Labaan. “Now let me tell you what happened with all the money that was supposed to go for the road. First, some very high ranking people in this country took the twenty or so percent that was factored into the bids for bribery. Then someone important’s first cousin showed up, waved some official looking papers, sprouted something in the local language that the contractor couldn’t understand. Then, in really excellent French, that cousin explained all manner of dire probabilities and suggested he could help. That cousin was then hired as a consultant. He was never seen again, except on payday.
    “An uncle then showed up, in company with four hundred and thirty seven more or less distant family members, every one of which was hired and perhaps a third of which showed up for work on any given day, except for payday.”
    The bus’ right front tire went into a remarkably deep and sharp pothole, causing the metal of the frame to strike asphalt and Labaan to wince with both the nerve-destroying sound and the blow, transmitted from hole to tire to almost shockless suspension to frame to barely padded and falling apart seat to him.
    “A guerilla chieftain,” he continued, once the pain had passed, “perhaps of no particular relationship to the ruling family, then arrived, offering to provide security with his band of armed men. He was, at first, turned down. And then several pieces of heavy construction equipment burned one night. The guerillas were quickly hired. They never showed up either, except for their leader, at payday, but no more equipment was burned.
    “Then came the tranzis, the Transnational Progressives, average age perhaps twenty-one or twenty-two, and knowing absolutely nothing about road construction. Indeed, most of them wouldn’t have even known what it meant to work. Rich boys and girls, trust fund babies, out to feel good about themselves by saving the world. They filled up every hotel room and hired the few competent, and critical, local engineers to do important things like act as chauffeurs and translators.”
    The bus had now arrived at a washboard section of the road. Labaan kept speaking, but the steady thumpkareechsprong of the road and bus made his words warble almost as much as a helicopter pilot’s over a radio.
    “More cousins came, and they, of course, had to be hired as consultants, as well.
    “At about this time, the accountant for the project arrived and explained that it could no longer be done to the standard contracted for. The substrate began to suffer and the thickness of the road to be reduced. The demands for money, for the hiring of spurious workers and spurious services, never ended. With each mile of road, that substrate became less to standard and that surface became thinner.”
    Labaan shook his head. “And then came the first rain…”
    At that moment, both front tires went into a large, more or less linear hole, adding the screech of metal as the fender twisted to all the more usual sounds.
    “As I said: ‘Foreign Aid.’ And it doesn’t matter a whit whether it come from NGOs, quangos, governments, or rock stars; it never does a bit of good. Never. Fifty-seven billion United States dollars come to Black Africa every year in aid, official and unofficial, Adam. Fifty billion is deposited to foreign accounts by our rulers.”
    ******

    That's a fairly accurate description. Can you offer a better solution to that than sustained firepower, ruthlessly applied? Well...okay...maybe ropes and trees.

    Addendum: It occurs to me that there aren't enough trees in Haiti to hang everyone we'd need to hang, so shooting to death by musketry will have to do.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 01-24-2010 at 08:56 PM. Reason: Add quote marks hopefully in right place as last paragraph maybe opinion.

  2. #2
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    4,021

    Default The Final Solution to the Haitian Problem

    from TK
    That's a fairly accurate description. Can you offer a better solution to that than sustained firepower, ruthlessly applied? Well...okay...maybe ropes and trees.

    Addendum: It occurs to me that there aren't enough trees in Haiti to hang everyone we'd need to hang, so shooting to death by musketry will have to do.
    will rise or fall on its own merits without need for me to say anything.

  3. #3
    Council Member AdamG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hiding from the Dreaded Burrito Gang
    Posts
    3,096

    Default

    NEW YORK (AP) -- The New York Police Department's commissioner is on a mission to Haiti to meet with leaders to discuss American support for rebuilding the earthquake-ravaged Caribbean nation's security forces.
    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...TAM&SECTION=US
    A scrimmage in a Border Station
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail


    http://i.imgur.com/IPT1uLH.jpg

  4. #4
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    1,602

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kratman View Post
    That's a fairly accurate description. Can you offer a better solution to that than sustained firepower, ruthlessly applied? Well...okay...maybe ropes and trees.

    Addendum: It occurs to me that there aren't enough trees in Haiti to hang everyone we'd need to hang, so shooting to death by musketry will have to do.
    As jmm99 so eloquently put it--no comment necessary. Perhaps a mod might want to close the thread before someone gets the impression that the Small Wars Journal has become the Mass Lynching Journal?
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


  5. #5
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    77

    Default

    By the way, no, I don't mean lynching. Trials are indicated. There are, however, valid reasons why certain crimes, in emergency circumstances, are traditionally capital and why the fleeing felon rule is often rightly applied. What is it but murder, after all, when someone steals life-saving aid in an emergency?

  6. #6
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    4,021

    Default Ok

    we now can exclude mass lynching.

    So, what should the rules of engagement be (not "are" - I know those), from your moral and ethical standpoint, with respect to the felons about which you are concerned ?

    Drilling down to your bus vignette in post #19 - a Narrative which Cabral would probably recite (if still alive), or one that I would recite if in Labaan's sandals (if he could afford them) - what are your solutions to the various problems recited ?

    Hopefully now a better level of discourse.

    Mike

  7. #7
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    we now can exclude mass lynching.

    So, what should the rules of engagement be (not "are" - I know those), from your moral and ethical standpoint, with respect to the felons about which you are concerned ?

    Drilling down to your bus vignette in post #19 - a Narrative which Cabral would probably recite (if still alive), or one that I would recite if in Labaan's sandals (if he could afford them) - what are your solutions to the various problems recited ?

    Hopefully now a better level of discourse.

    Mike
    If you mean a way to make aid go to those around the world who really need and could make good use of it _without_ at the same time demoralizing and corrupting the societies it is going to, sadly, except for things that are merely tactical, I don't _have_ any. I wish I did. I worked at this sort of thing for quite a while, tactically, commanding a CA team, also a bit on the money-raising side, and strategically/doctrinally, as de facto in house counsel (technically, Director, Rule of Law) for the PKSOI. The more I worked at it, the more hopeless I became that any real solutions were possible and practical. That said, there is something to be said for the United States, as a condition of aid, insisting on the at least partial surrender of sovereignty to the extent of allowing us to seize, try, and punish those in the recipient countries guilty of corruption that involves our money or goods or our citizens' money or goods.

    I don't think we have the internal moral wherewithal for that so it strikes me as useless to contemplate doing it, by the way.

    And, ere we get too very upturned-nosey at the corruption in the Third World, our NGOs and charities are all too often guilty of equal corruption, coupled with no small amount of outright fraud.

    As for ROE for use of deadly force in emergency situations, we've given the order, "shoot to kill or maim looters and arsonists," within the United States within the last 42 years and, I think, more recently than that. Though I would be inclined to add to it the still lawful (generally and technically, but don't hang your hat on it) fleeing felon rule. It is critical to establish order quickly and thoroughly in circumstances where wolves (the two legged kind) are at large and people's lives depend on the aid the wolves will steal, given the chance.

    The fleeing felon rule, by the way, is not a rule of summary execution. It authorizes deadly force, yes, to prevent escape, but felons (common law felons, rather) who surrender are to be arrested and taken for trial. The purpose of the rule is to keep them from escaping to commit yet more crimes. Accepting that mistakes will be made, I think it is overall a good rule, generally, and certainly in a place that was hit as Haiti was. Oddly enough, the fleeing felon rule is pretty much dead for police officers here, but still valid for civilians.

    (Is there ever a place for summary execution? The UCMJ says "yes." It is very narrow, however. Look up mutiny.)

    At the time of writing, I didn't realize you were a lawyer and likely know all of this. Others, however, will not.
    Last edited by Tom Kratman; 01-25-2010 at 12:31 AM.

  8. #8
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    4,021

    Default What did Labaan recommend ?

    Since the bus vignette and its Narrative seemed realistic to me, I thought Labaan might have some suggestions. He sounds like an interesting character.

    As to shooting looters, that was part of the Detroit Riot - discussed as part of the COIN comes home thread. Ken White's unit did not find it necessary to shoot anyone, Went there, did that. "Shoot all the looters" is a good soundbite; so also "Shoot all irregular combatants".

    As to the "fleeing felon" rule, some materials re: Tennessee v Garner are linked here, Tennessee v. Garner (part of the Astan ROE Change thread).

    As to mutiny, I couldn't find any summary execution provisons in the Manual for Courts-Martial re: "mutiny" (searched all returns on the word). Obviously, during the active mutiny, we have a combat situation where "armed, hostile, shoot" would be a valid rule. Once the mutineers have surrendered, another story - see, Summary Execution.

    True that Tony Waller was acquitted at his 1902 CM (for reasons that mostly avoided the merits); but in that case, there was more relative filth to cast at the flag grades (see J. Franklin Bell and Jacob H. Smith) than with the field and company grades who had to carry out the orders (dirty or not).

    Within my own personal package of morals and ethics (and a vivid imagination), I could think of scenarios where my morals and ethics would allow summary actions (including executions) in sitations where "exigent circumstances" or "absolute necessity" exist. Others' morals and ethics would collide with mine. In general, discussing the extremes leads to extremes in discourse. In any event, "exigent circumstances" and "absolute necessity" are "jury nullification" arguments, which are thin reeds indeed. In Waller's case, they worked, but he never got to command the Corps.

    Regards

    Mike

  9. #9
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    Since the bus vignette and its Narrative seemed realistic to me, I thought Labaan might have some suggestions. He sounds like an interesting character.

    As to shooting looters, that was part of the Detroit Riot - discussed as part of the COIN comes home thread. Ken White's unit did not find it necessary to shoot anyone, Went there, did that. "Shoot all the looters" is a good soundbite; so also "Shoot all irregular combatants".

    As to the "fleeing felon" rule, some materials re: Tennessee v Garner are linked here, Tennessee v. Garner (part of the Astan ROE Change thread).

    As to mutiny, I couldn't find any summary execution provisons in the Manual for Courts-Martial re: "mutiny" (searched all returns on the word). Obviously, during the active mutiny, we have a combat situation where "armed, hostile, shoot" would be a valid rule. Once the mutineers have surrendered, another story - see, Summary Execution.

    True that Tony Waller was acquitted at his 1902 CM (for reasons that mostly avoided the merits); but in that case, there was more relative filth to cast at the flag grades (see J. Franklin Bell and Jacob H. Smith) than with the field and company grades who had to carry out the orders (dirty or not).

    Within my own personal package of morals and ethics (and a vivid imagination), I could think of scenarios where my morals and ethics would allow summary actions (including executions) in sitations where "exigent circumstances" or "absolute necessity" exist. Others' morals and ethics would collide with mine. In general, discussing the extremes leads to extremes in discourse. In any event, "exigent circumstances" and "absolute necessity" are "jury nullification" arguments, which are thin reeds indeed. In Waller's case, they worked, but he never got to command the Corps.

    Regards

    Mike
    Labaan is actually a "bad guy," except that he isn't. He's a good man doing a bad thing for the only group that matters to him, his tribe. He does have one such idea. I don't recall if it's before that passage or after. Forget the idea of African "countries," in most cases. Split them back up into their tribes. One of the things, one suspects, that leads to such bevatheft in Africa (and the problem isn't restricted to there), is that, for the most part, people simply don't care about, or don't even consider to be fully human, people of other tribes. Thus theft has all the moral connotations of stealing a dog's bone. Short version: "Why not steal? It's on behalf of my tribe."

    It's not unreasonable to expect a certain, shall we say, diminution (at least) in the intensity of looting should it be ordered that looters will be shot. Of course, talk is cheap and demonstrations might be required.

    I was familiar with Garner. That's why I mentioned that it was a fairly dead letter with regard to the police. It does not, on the face of it, appear to take the fleeing felon rule from privati, however. Note for the audience: you would be _SUED_ blue if you actually did it.

    You didn't dig far enough. It falls under the "do utmost to prevent." In the explanatory sections you'll find: "Utmost includes the use of such force, including deadly force, as may be reasonably necessary under the circumstances to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition." Tack onto that that failure to do "the utmost" to suppress a mutiny is also a capital crime. "Reasonably necessary" is something of a weasel phrase, of course. It is not hard, however, to come up with scenarios where it would be reasonably necessary. Note, however, that in this age, it would be career death to actually do it, quite despite that it is a capital crime also to fail to do that utmost to suppress a mutiny.

    Addendum:

    By the way, with the Waller case, it is by no means clear that the Filipino porters were even subject to the UCMJ (Articles of War, back then), such that they even _could_ be in a state of legal mutiny. It strikes me as fairly obvious that it was murder.
    Last edited by Tom Kratman; 01-25-2010 at 12:14 PM.

  10. #10
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Rancho La Espada, Blanchard, OK
    Posts
    1,065

    Default As I said in my previous posts

    I am somewhat perplexed by the Haitian response to the earthquake flip flopping between slightly more optimistic and slightly more pessimistic. Haitian culture has been characterized by folks who make it a point to study Haiti and who have spent a lot more time there than I have as "predatory." Following Operation Uphold Democracy I wrote predicting that we (the international community) would have to return to Haiti in a decade or so. A decade it was. Tom makes the point here that the "international community" has always lacked the will to do what is required to help Haiti overcome its predatory culture. That, indeed, has been the case although sometimes it has been that we don't know what to do. Hence frustration. Rex comments that there was a general consensus pre-earthquake that Haiti was beginning to get its act together - something I referred to in my earlier post. But, Rex, was it a really well-founded consensus or simply wishful thinking?

    Cheers

    JohnT

  11. #11
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    1,602

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John T. Fishel View Post
    Tom makes the point here that the "international community" has always lacked the will to do what is required to help Haiti overcome its predatory culture. That, indeed, has been the case although sometimes it has been that we don't know what to do. Hence frustration. Rex comments that there was a general consensus pre-earthquake that Haiti was beginning to get its act together - something I referred to in my earlier post. But, Rex, was it a really well-founded consensus or simply wishful thinking?
    I think it was more than wishful thinking (as the HDI indicators suggest), but at the same time very, very modest and very fragile progress.

    Part of the problem has always been, frankly, national leadership—something over which the international community has no real influence. Preval has the advantage that he has been somewhat less willing to use some of the dysfunctional methods of his predecessors, and has greater appreciation for the technical complexities of many of the challenges at hand. On the other hand, he's hardly a charismatic leader of the sort that one would hope for in any effort to rally the population for the long, difficult (and yes, frustrating task) of national reconstruction.
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


  12. #12
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Rancho La Espada, Blanchard, OK
    Posts
    1,065

    Default That is my impression of Preval, too.

    However, the human talent IN Haiti has been and remains pretty poor. Talented Haitians go to the US and Canada where they join the diaspora and contribute money but, generally, do not return to Haiti to lend their talents on a permanent basis. In the UNMIH era I recall one who attempted to do so, served as Prime Minister for a while, and was forced out by Pres Aristide. We need to recall that Pres Preval was Aristide's successor as President and, after having been a strong supporter, was totally undercut by Aristide ...

    So, how much hope can one have that Haiti will rise to the challenge? How much hope can we have that the international community led by Brazil, Canada, Chile, and the US will retain its interest and will to nudge, cajole, support, train, fund, and threaten (if necessary) Haiti's leaders to themselves do the right thing?

    On that cheery note

    JohnT

Similar Threads

  1. UK military problems & policies
    By SWJED in forum Europe
    Replies: 267
    Last Post: 01-15-2019, 05:09 PM
  2. Israel (catch all: not intell or the IDF)
    By davidbfpo in forum Middle East
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-23-2017, 01:53 PM
  3. French urban rioting (catch all)
    By SWJED in forum Europe
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 02-22-2017, 10:02 AM
  4. SOUTHCOM POC for Haiti
    By SWJED in forum RFIs & Members' Projects
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-18-2010, 03:10 AM
  5. Don't Send a Lion to Catch a Mouse
    By SWJED in forum Futurists & Theorists
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 03-15-2007, 11:46 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •