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Old 10-19-2009   #1
OfTheTroops
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Default Asymmetric Policing

Among this group of scholars and researchers I though would be a great place to ask opinions of Asymmetric policing. What i believe it means is like asymmetric warfare applying low-tech solutions to complex problems? My experience was using whistles in place of radios and maps instead of complex computer tracking. I may be on the wrong track but I think it is an interesting topic of discussion that could go many places. Given that most places in the western world (technology dependent) provides assistance to post-conflict nations (technology resistant), asymmetric solutions are a key to success.
So any discussion, historical examples, or other points of interest would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 10-19-2009   #2
jmm99
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Default From a dumb lawyer...

who never heard of or saw the phrase "asymmetric policing" before your post. Anyway, I Googled the phrase and came up with Stephen L. Mallory, The Concept of Asymmetric Policing. Since there are a number of real law enforcement people here, I hand off to them for comment.

You come up with interesting topics - I thought MPs were supposed to be dull, etc.

Seriously, my dad's slightly older brother was one on Okinawa in WWII. His best story was about when he had to arrest one of his best friends from our hometown (after the guy broke his 1SG's wrist). So, the poke wasn't serious - Uncle Mac was far from dull.

Cheers

Mike
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Old 10-19-2009   #3
Tom Odom
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Assymetric Policing:

fist--use a club

club--use a bigger club

knife--use a gun

gun--many guns

many guns--National Guard (never forget the Air National Guard)

How am I doing, Slap?

Tom
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Old 10-19-2009   #4
davidbfpo
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Default Asymmetric solutions aka KISS?

OftheTroops cited:
Quote:
What i believe it means is like asymmetric warfare applying low-tech solutions to complex problems? My experience was using whistles in place of radios and maps instead of complex computer tracking. I may be on the wrong track but I think it is an interesting topic of discussion that could go many places. Given that most places in the western world (technology dependent) provides assistance to post-conflict nations (technology resistant), asymmetric solutions are a key to success.
A good point and recent experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan - some reflected in a variety of threads here - from this armchair should add to the very poor, police knowledge base on assisting non-Western partners. It is simply not written down or published, so has to be re-learnt. Official, state programmes invariably start with Security Sector Reform (SSR) and de-militarisation. Or we have the much criticised German assistance to the ANP, which now appears to have been "lost" and replaced by a US effort.

Years ago when I did look at this police aspect I found that two Western nations stood out: the Australian Federal Police (AFP) and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP).

Much of the international effort is aimed at strategy and senior management. Plus some training, e.g. Belgain input to public order / riot control training in South Africa. Rarely does anything appear to end at the bottom or frontline.

It might be worth trying to find reports etc on how the assistance given in Kosovo and East Timor has worked. There are plenty of other places to look, but as the two cases involved the UN maybe easier to find information, but not personal reflections.

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Old 10-19-2009   #5
slapout9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Odom View Post
Assymetric Policing:

fist--use a club

club--use a bigger club

knife--use a gun

gun--many guns

many guns--National Guard (never forget the Air National Guard)

How am I doing, Slap?

Tom
Tom, you got it man. You should be able to get one of those Multi-Million Dollar Police adviser contracts......no, wait you have to be a motivational speaker too
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Old 10-19-2009   #6
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OfTheTroops,
1-On the low tech end teaching officers to use their notebook and pen and a good 3X5 card index system has probably solved more crimes than anything. In the computer age I think we have lost that essential skill.
2-From where you are located you may want to research the fact that for a brief time there was a Special Forces MP unit that existed.
3-As David mentioned Police departments in general do not have a lessons learned capability. Much of what I learned(the good stuff anyway) was passed down to me from older officers almost like an apprenticeship method. I often thought we needed a Field Manual System like the Military that could be distributed and updated in the same way to Police Departments All across the country.
4-Teaching Police how to do a 5 Rings analysis or ASCOPE analysis with pen and paper would have a lot of benefit, doing it by hand in the field teaches the Police/COIN thinking methodology. I used to do my stuff with a crime scene/traffic accident template. I guess they still make those. It is visual method of crime/problem solving in general.

More as I think of it.
Also what does PTT stand for? It is in your Bio?
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Old 10-19-2009   #7
OfTheTroops
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Default Slapout is out front

PTT= Police Transition Team or PMT= Police Mentor Team

Our police advisors often get hung up on the lack of technological capabilities or just do not know how it was done before. ( Before formflow, pure edge, Computers in patrol cars, computers in their pockets) Not knowing how we did it before we say "these guys are backwards because they keep there records in binders and not on some god-awful database." I was taught that the officer's most powerful tool is his observations and his notebook but I do not know the "fieldcraft" that you mentioned or the most effective/ commonly used gap stoppers. I now feel like my dad should tell me, "Well go look it up." And I will eventually.... Just thought you guys might have some leads and I think it is an interesting and relevant discussion.
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Old 10-19-2009   #8
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Default Out front from the past

Go back to basics. What did a police officer (PC) carry and what did he do?

In the UK and a number of colonial situations the PC had a uniform (including boots to walk in), a whistle, a personal weapon (not always a firearm) and a notebook. Some training in law and procedure - often more "learnt on the job".

Jump forward to today and place the PC in 'Chaos Country' (hat tip to Tom Odom). Uniform (less not more), communication device (radio, mobile phone etc), weaponary, training (far more maybe), trainers and transport even and a notebook (yes I concede in Chaos illiteracy and informal conflict resolution maybe factors).

I cannot believe that a proper assessment is lacking before deployment of trainers, PTT etc and resourcing. That's the advantage of an armchair.

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Old 10-19-2009   #9
jmm99
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Default The dumb lawyer again

This is focused on the need for judicial system training (of judges, lawyers and police) in Astan - the hurdles to overcome.

The most candid assessments have been done by the Afghanistan Justice Sector Support Program (JSSP). The important publications are the first four documents:

Quote:
•Assessment of the Justice Sector in Kunduz Province, Oct 2007 (37 pages)

•Assessment of Provincial Defense Capabilities, Sept 2007 (70 pages)

•The State of Regional Justice Systems in Balkh Herat and Nangarhar, Dec 2006 (79 pages)

•Briefing Report (JSSP goals, activities and accomplishments to date), October 2007 (34 pages)
Unfortunately, these are for only four provinces (and, at the time, fairly secure ones at that). The assessments have not been updated since 2007; but there are reports (less candid and complete than the assessments, IMO) through Nov 2008 on the webpage.

My evaluation is that the judges have serious problems (probably fixable), and the lawyers (including prosecutors) are near-FUBAR. I have my thoughts about the ANP, but would like first to have your opinions as LE professionals on that part of the assessments.

Based on the assessments, police training (looking at a relatively short time frame of years, not decades) would have to be very basic indeed. Paper and pencils would seem to work for pictographs (don't count on literacy) - so, Slap's suggestion to draw rings and other pictures is not a bad one.

Happy reading

Mike
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Old 10-19-2009   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OfTheTroops View Post
PTT= Police Transition Team or PMT= Police Mentor Team

Our police advisors often get hung up on the lack of technological capabilities or just do not know how it was done before. ( Before formflow, pure edge, Computers in patrol cars, computers in their pockets) Not knowing how we did it before we say "these guys are backwards because they keep there records in binders and not on some god-awful database." I was taught that the officer's most powerful tool is his observations and his notebook but I do not know the "fieldcraft" that you mentioned or the most effective/ commonly used gap stoppers. I now feel like my dad should tell me, "Well go look it up." And I will eventually.... Just thought you guys might have some leads and I think it is an interesting and relevant discussion.
One thing I would do would be to contact the FBI National Academy and request a list of all Foreign police officers that have attended their Academy. If you can find any current or former Police Officers in the your country of interest this would be a big help in assessing the situation and give you a place to start building relationships. I don't know what the protocol is to request such information now a days, but you have their number give them a call and see what happens.
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Old 10-20-2009   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
The most candid assessments have been done by the Afghanistan Justice Sector Support Program (JSSP). The important publications are the first four document:
Mike
That one picture of the last briefing where all the papers were shoved into a closet filing systems needs some work.
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Old 10-20-2009   #12
jmm99
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Default It does not...

my office resembles that statement.

Somewhat more seriously, I was thinking about a historical instance where a foreign military force was involved in policing a largely illiterate population, of multiple ethnicities living in separated communities, while also dealing with internal insurgencies, warring warlords and cross-borders incursions. Not being a student of British colonial policing, I looked for something closer to home. So, I took a time machine back to the 1700s.

During the era 1700-1750, the French-Canadian Marines garrisoned the area from Labrador to Manitoba with roughly 900 Marines and perhaps 100-200 French-Canadian voyageurs who contracted directly with company commanders. They were spread thin and had to employ more diplomacy than anything else. With a few exceptions, they left Indian justice to their traditional system; and applied French justice primarily to French nationals.

The story (36 pages) is told by Desmond H. Brown, They Do Not Submit Themselves To The King’s Law: Amerindians and Criminal Justice During the French Regime, which sums up the situation:

Quote:
The early progression from participation in the North Atlantic fishery to monopoly in the fur trade and its subsequent rapid and lucrative expansion, caused French dominion in North America to evolve into an empire of trade. But it was an empire that needed few French subjects to function. The bulk of the work was done by the Aboriginal peoples. It was they who gathered the pelts and transported them to the French entrepôts, and who also became valued military allies.

This was fortunate for successive trading companies who founded and administered the first settlements, as well as for later royal governments, because the attention of French monarchs was focused on Europe and the endemic Continental warfare of the time. The French were always thin on the ground. They never had the military muscle to overawe the Amerindians and force them to submit to French sovereignty nor, in particular, to French criminal justice. Nor were they able to convince them to comply with it by argument or example.

As a result, there was no change in the legal status of Amerindians during the French regime. They continued to be governed by their own law in all intra-tribal offences and, with the rare exceptions that proved the rule, in crimes that involved Amerindians and French subjects, with restitution as the means for settlement.
The favored method for resolving collisions between French and Indian justice was reparations, particulary after a 1684 case (p.28):

Quote:
It is thus evident that accepting or making restitution for offences committed by or against Amerindians in French settlements along the St. Lawrence was becoming customary in the mid-seventeenth century. This practice also came to be followed at French military posts in the pays d’en haut later in the regime. It became the rule after two Natives — a Chippewa and a Menomimee — were executed at Michilimackinic in 1684 for killing two Frenchmen.

The incident is analyzed in detail by R. White who follows the lengthy and tortuous negotiations between the French and the tribal councils. He makes clear the failure of the French to comprehend the imperatives of Amerindian justice and the purpose of restitution on the one hand and, on the other, the incredulity of the tribesmen when they were made to understand that French justice demanded a life for a life, even if the accused was an ally in an ongoing war. In short, the affair came close to sundering friendly relations between the French and the Natives of the area, even after the French made liberal restitution to the tribes when the consequences of their action became clear.

After this, and surrounded by the Native presence, post commanders who dispensed justice to their fellow subjects were not eager to observe the letter of French law in their dealings with the Natives. As White then goes on to demonstrate, French authority in the area subsequently worked to find some middle ground to settle incidents of this kind. Nevertheless, whatever compromises were negotiated invariably conformed to the Amerindian pattern of conflict resolution: restitution rather than retribution.
In chasing down details of the 1684 case, it turned out that the murders (of two French-Canadian fur traders) took place about a 1/2 mile from where I'm writing this; and an ancestor (Joseph Lemire) was one of a party of Marines who tracked down the murderers in Sault Ste. Marie (250 miles away).

The more usual case of reparations is illustrated by another incident which I found in searching for history about another ancestor. From the Michigan Historical Collection:

Quote:
Letter from Vaudreuil
(October 12, 1717)
Vaudreuil, "On the Savages of Detroit" in: Michigan Historical Collections, XXXIII, pp. 590-593.

pp. 592, 593.

(page 592) .....

The trouble which prevented the principal chiefs of the Detroit tribes from coming, to Montreal, was created by an Outaouac of that post and four others from Saguinan. These five men pretended they were going to war against the Flatheads; they proceeded to the river of the Miamis and there slew an Iroquois and his wife, who was a Miami woman, and two children.

This wrongful attack concerns the Iroquois because the (page 593) man who was killed was of their tribe. It also concerns the Miamis, for the man was married and living with them. This matter must be settled, and the Iroquois and Miamis must be prevented from taking vengeance on the Outavois and the other tribes of Detroit.

The Sr. de Tonty has already begun, for his part, to take action with the Miamis through the Sr. de Vincennes to dissuade them from their intention of avenging themselves and to remove every pretext for their pursuing this course which would give rise to a war between them and the people at Detroit and Saguinan, which it would be difficult to stop. He has induced the tribes of Detroit to join him in sending to Saguinan to seize these murderers and deliver them up to the Miamis.

The Outaouacs and Poutouatamis each sent a boat of their men, to which the Sr. de Tonty added a boat of Frenchmen under the command of the Sr. de Bragelongue, a Lieutenant, who brought back the three murderers to Detroit where the Sr. de Tonty had them under guard until he received news from the Miamis, to whom he had taken care, to make known the amends, which it was proposed to make to them.

He hopes that they will be satisfied with this action and will accept as a complete reparation the presents which the tribes of Detroit, and the French also, are preparing to make them, and that this disturbance may be suppressed by this means. I hope so, too; but I shall not be able to get any news about it until next spring.
Unfortunately, I was unable to find the rest of the story. If the reparations offer were accepted, the three Indians would have been freed and a blood feud between four Indian groups would have been avoided. Etienne de Bragelongue was later promoted to capitaine and commanded his own company at Fort Chambly (near Montréal), where he was aide-major.

The lessons learned, from what was in effect a peace enforcement operation, were that a small footprint can bring results (a canoe load of men was perhaps 6 or 7); two Indian groups (the same ethnicities as the murderers) co-operated with the Marines in making the arrests; and both the Indian groups and the French (who had no role in the murders) were willing to join in offering reparations to the Miamis and Iroquois (who were generally French enemies).

Whether one should call this "asymmetric policing", I don't know.
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Old 10-20-2009   #13
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Default Out front from the past (Part 2)

Returning to 'Chaos Country' after some thought.

How mobile is the local population, how many live in urban settlements, roads and an endless list. Mapping human geography is important and something police officers learn slowly. Provide maps and teach how to read them. Not just stick pins in, although that can be valuable.

What level of person communication is used? Phone at one point were rare, then landline phones arrived - not for mass use and now mass use of mobile phones can be anticipated. Examples: Liberia, Somalia and Afghanistan. Mass communication can change very quickly.

Where and how do the police interact with the local population (different from the travelling communities e.g. truck drivers at roadblocks)? Often and a legacy from colonial times the police were the only adminstrative agency, from Ireland to Rhodesia i.e. inspection, registration and permit granting. Note for many years the police in Mogadishu remained respected.

What level of violence is traditionally used in conflict resolution? Touched upon in the Gendarmerie thread. In Rhodesia the BSAP were largely un-armed for a long period. Is evidence gathering used or just brute force?

Are there courts, let alone prisons? Well covered in JMM's posts and elsewhere IIRC. Even cells for arrested suspects.

With all these factors and different national, indeed international policing standards it is important in 'Chaos Country' to discard some and rapidly bring in others. Clearly robust digital cameras and mobile phones come to the fore.

Now back to my home country.

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Old 10-21-2009   #14
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I had an idea once that the first day of any police academy should be spent playing the game CLUE. It really does teach the basics, you have a crime scene map, the tools/weapons/suspects and your notebook.....now go solve the crime! Link below of the game,take a look at the pictures of how the game was adapted and at how many languages it comes in. Because it is a board game (visual and has physical pieces) a person does not have to be that literate to get the basic idea of the process. Something to think about anyway.




http://www.boardgamegeek.com/images/...me/1294/page/1
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Old 10-21-2009   #15
jmm99
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Default At least, Slap, you have a clue ....

but I forgot about Clue. We (several of us) used to play it in the mid-50s (of the last century ). It would be a good teaching aid.

My paralegal has a Clue set, a Clue Jr set, and a criminal justice degree. She will take on teaching assignments on a contractual basis. Terms to be negotiated - foreign travel to be restricted to "secure sites".

She is looking for a good lawyer to represent her in the negotiations. Any recommendations ?

Mike

PS: she agrees that Clue can be handled by a literacy-challenged person.
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Old 10-21-2009   #16
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Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
but I forgot about Clue. We (several of us) used to play it in the mid-50s (of the last century ). It would be a good teaching aid.

My paralegal has a Clue set, a Clue Jr set, and a criminal justice degree. She will take on teaching assignments on a contractual basis. Terms to be negotiated - foreign travel to be restricted to "secure sites".

She is looking for a good lawyer to represent her in the negotiations. Any recommendations ?

Mike

PS: she agrees that Clue can be handled by a literacy-challenged person.
Lawyers and Money......geeez
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Old 04-05-2012   #17
OfTheTroops
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Time to relearn all I forgot in 3 years lol
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