Hello Reed,Originally Posted by reed11b
Not to be a wise old retired NCO herein, but exactly what would you have expected from Ken having read your quotes below?
Let's get a little less personal with the seniors and respect the fact that Ken's background and experience is significant and plays a much larger role than some acronym SME.
Back in my days, SME translated to 15 years minimum.
Regards, Stan
If you want to blend in, take the bus
My knowledge comes from schooling and that I work as a outreach and education coordinator for the Readjustment Counseling Service (part of the VHA), not my military experience. I am not SME, but I do have solid specific knowledge on this topic (MH and PTSD). Sorry I touched a nerve w/ you salty old-timers, but the topic IS important. Perhaps instead of just being defensive you could make some valid suggestions.
Reed
Similar to my response to your PM...
I applaud your continued service and education.
No nerves touched here with me, but I'm not going to discount my military leadership education (aka PLC) in order to fix what you have indicated is a shortfall.
For the record, we attack the subject, not the members that post their thoughts and opinions.
Let's keep the thread and posts professional.
If you want to blend in, take the bus
Sociopath don't quite do it ...
for me because I think immediately of sociopaths as we think of that term in the criminal justice system - serial criminals (whether murder, rape, robbery or theft), who lack any empathy and are extremely self-centered.
I don't think that is what you are really saying, Ken - since IMO none of the criminal sociopaths I've known would have been at all useful in the military.
Slap may well have an opinion on this which is based on more experience - despite his relative youth.
There are personality types (probably galore) who can hack violence - even when it is of the cold-blooded kind. I think of three friends over the years (two still with us in the Copper Country) who were Marine snipers in Nam and who seem to have been relatively untouched by the experience. If anything, it seems to have been a positive thing - that from an outside observer who is not into their heads, but just a guy who drank a fair amount of beer with them.
On the other hand, there are personality types (again probably galore) who cannot hack violence. And, a bunch in between. So, it would seem useful to expand on some personality profiles as you guys know them (no need for shrink jargon).
Both Ken and Reed recognize what they are willing to call "sociopathy" - Ken in other threads as well as here; Reed here:
I conclude that what you must mean as "sociopathic traits" are different from how I would use the term as a lawyer.OK, but not eneogh sociopaths exist to fill the Army's need, and many of us "straight arrows" develop sociopathic traits in service.
If what Reed said was meant, it seems to me that "sociopathic traits" or lack of same is an issue which is far from off-topic - since the support required will vary with the personality profile (METT-TC, to borrow from you guys).
Well, sort of...
Your prerogative to think of it in that manner -- and logical that you should do so. Not being burdened by being a Lawyer or a Psychologist, I do not have to be so precise. I use the term to indicate those tendencies that mirror your description, lacking empathy and being self centered and I contend that about half the people I have known in an overlong life have those traits to one extent or another. Quite obviously, the full blown legal and psychologically diagnosed Sociopath in the strictest sense of the term is not a desirable person -- and would, as you say, not be good as a Soldier.
However, as I said, we are all blends of numerous pathologies and traits both inherited and acquired so some of the sociopathic tendencies serve to insulate an individual from the horror of war -- or allow him or her to better accept the reality of war and deal with it. I mentioned several experiments that have indicated that those who can accept violence as opposed to those who categorically reject it or are repelled to such an extent that they literally freeze momentarily can be identified by various assessments including MRI scans.More elegantly said than by me but that's the point...There are personality types (probably galore) who can hack violence - even when it is of the cold-blooded kind. I think of three friends over the years (two still with us in the Copper Country) who were Marine snipers in Nam and who seem to have been relatively untouched by the experience. If anything, it seems to have been a positive thing - that from an outside observer who is not into their heads, but just a guy who drank a fair amount of beer with them.
On the other hand, there are personality types (again probably galore) who cannot hack violence. And, a bunch in between. So, it would seem useful to expand on some personality profiles as you guys know them (no need for shrink jargon).Certainment!I conclude that what you must mean as "sociopathic traits" are different from how I would use the term as a lawyer.I'd think so...If what Reed said was meant, it seems to me that "sociopathic traits" or lack of same is an issue which is far from off-topic - since the support required will vary with the personality profile (METT-TC, to borrow from you guys).
Dude, have you seen my car?
On monday, I'm so gonna find a psychiatrist to explain my sociopathic tendacies in warfare when I positively identify my enemy. It must be something to do with the way my mom treated me as a child.
Reed- despite my lack of humor (my daughter will probably not attend college now that the economic sky has fallen; hopefully, y'all have at least smiled if not laughed so we can get back on topic), I would encourage you to take a knee and allow us to get back to your original discussion.
IMO, Ken is right-outside of his so-called PC crowd. Freudian SME's thought and regard evolved throughout the last 65 years. From shell shock to PTSD to TBIs, advances are being made.
Futhermore, I would assert that the answer to your original question is the typical timeless Ken statement of METT-TC coupled with leadership. A Patreaus/Odierno/Caldwell must be tasked with this very important subject if we hope for some resolve on our wounded (and yes, I have plenty of wounded that I care deeply about).
Initially, Ken was only suggesting that we have a holistic approach during the recruitment process and post-deployment period.
cheers,
mike
My experience has been that the Medical Service Corps has seized the moment to create a bigger niche for themselves in the Army.
The great majority of anger I've experienced, post-deployment, has been righteous anger directed toward this or that weaselly MSC officer putting requirement after requirement on our notably non-combat unit, making it difficult to train/have time with my family.
I am still fully convinced that Army Doctors put a ton of people on "medical hold" primarily to create the Walter Reed crisis and therefore increase their budget/officer staffing.
On a related issue, a co-worker, who has just returned from a year-long non-combat deployment, has been required, along with the rest of his section, to attend PTSD counselling sessions. When he asked to be let out of this un-paid requirement, he was automatically diagnosed with PTSD.
I missed this somehow, you know how us young folks are. IMHO a good person can turn socio/psycho/A@@hole based upon the situation and mission if he believes in it. The key is he/she can turn it off when it is not justified. A person with a true mental health issue can not make/or will not make that distinction.
Exactly!
I'm wit you!!!
Research says that is difficult and unlikly. One study that supports that shows higher rates of PTSD among LEO's then comabt vets! Emotions are addictive in a sense. Open those flood gates and it is hard to close them again. I'm as type "B" as one can get, but I have been restless and wanting to go back ever since I deployed to Iraq in '03. I think the "instant" mode switcher is a myth or at the very least, very very rare.
Reed
Research proves what researchers want it to prove
and little more.
My estimate is that the number of folks who can successfully make that switch is about 30%. Another 30% are not designed for combat or LE like stress (though many can and will do it if forced with varying MH results) and the remainder can hack it and are generally but varyingly successful in tolerating the trauma. Willingness or ability (desire or wishes have little to do with it) to accept violence is the issue; that simple.
Interesting how those estimates track with the 1/3 Rule on wars...
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