Army Officer Commercial

[Steve Blair]

2. Considering the conflicts that we are currently in; four LTs with the wrong mentality may well do more harm and less good than one LT with the right mentality.

Correct. But who's to say that a group of over-educated urban elites would be any more capable of producing the "right mentality" than their social and cultural opposites? How can you be sure they won't end up looking down their collective noses at folks who don't think the same way they do or aren't as open-minded as they are? I've met plenty of the "elites" who are just as close-minded and opinionated as their more "rural" counterparts...they just use bigger words to convey their disdain. And some of those same folks contributed to the policies and execution that lost that war in Southeast Asia you allude to.

What we need is a mix, and there is no silver bullet to get that. Not even on the more elevated coasts....

[Massengale]

Correct. But who's to say that a group of over-educated urban elites would be any more capable of producing the "right mentality" than their social and cultural opposites? How can you be sure they won't end up looking down their collective noses at folks who don't think the same way they do or aren't as open-minded as they are? I've met plenty of the "elites" who are just as close-minded and opinionated as their more "rural" counterparts...they just use bigger words to convey their disdain. And some of those same folks contributed to the policies and execution that lost that war in Southeast Asia you allude to.

What we need is a mix, and there is no silver bullet to get that. Not even on the more elevated coasts....

true on your conclusion. but kids from the coasts tend to be either a. from first-generation immigrant families or b. are the elites you speak of. in which case they've probably traveled extensively in Asia, the ME or Africa and know other languages (besides Spanish)...which does, in and of itself, lend itself to dealing with other cultural environments. My concern here is with young officers, not the folks who actually get us into wars (that's a separate discussion). I'm not saying that we should get rid of southerners, I'm saying that it might be advantageous for a variety of reasons for the number of young officers from the coasts to be more than the current number, which is infinitesimal. I'm also suggesting that the dominant cultural environment of the Army is hostile to people from the coasts. And I'm tired of hearing that we're not real "Americans." And, yes, the northeastern "elites" do hold all sorts of (mostly but not always wrong) stereotypes about the Army (and the rest of America for that matter). And that hurts recruiting too. But the Army does itself no favors when it acts in ways that reinforces those stereotypes.

[Massengale]

Agreed on the Army encouragement and incentivization of marriage...but that's part and parcel of Army culture too. And like I said, it discourages us single folks from entering. (Never mind that Forscom posts are always placed in areas where the local younger female inhabitants are chain-smoking obese single mothers.)

Considering that over 40% of young officers are from the South and considering where the posts are, I don't see the resistance here to the idea that the Army is culturally dominated by southerners. That's simply inevitable.

I also am unclear on what the opposition is to the logical point that 200 cadets at a relatively low-ranking school are likely to have more mediocrities and turds among them than 200 cadets at a high-ranking school, whether it be Carleton, Emory, the University of Chicago or Columbia. That's just a function of math.

A commander can't change hicks into diplomats overnight.

Until the economy changed everything (very temporarily), look at what happened with enlisted recruiting. They were mining ever deeper and deeper into the same zip codes, having to issue more and more waivers.

[selil]

I also am unclear on what the opposition is to the logical point that 200 cadets at a relatively low-ranking school are likely to have more mediocrities and turds among them than 200 cadets at a high-ranking school, whether it be Carleton, Emory, the University of Chicago or Columbia. That's just a function of math.

Since, there is absolutely NO reasonable reliable current method of ranking schools in any form or fashion. Since, in many cases the best academic schools and the best ROTC programs are joined sets. Since, most of the Ivy Leagues are liberal arts programs, and the military has always decreed that they are interested in engineering talent (oh since Thomas Jefferson and the Morrill Acts of 1862 and 1890).

I wonder why you have such an unfathomable derision for people from the south, midwest and inter-mountain region of the United States. I've never run into this kind of egregious cultural centrism in Bozeman, Durango, Kalamazoo, or Champlain. You continue to refer to people from anywhere but the coasts as turds and mediocrities among other unflattering derisive terms.

[Massengale]

Since, there is absolutely NO reasonable reliable current method of ranking schools in any form or fashion. Since, in many cases the best academic schools and the best ROTC programs are joined sets. Since, most of the Ivy Leagues are liberal arts programs, and the military has always decreed that they are interested in engineering talent (oh since Thomas Jefferson and the Morrill Acts of 1862 and 1890).

I wonder why you have such an unfathomable derision for people from the south, midwest and inter-mountain region of the United States. I've never run into this kind of egregious cultural centrism in Bozeman, Durango, Kalamazoo, or Champlain. You continue to refer to people from anywhere but the coasts as turds and mediocrities among other unflattering derisive terms.

1. I of course said nothing of the kind. (Ok, I don't have much good to say about Killeen or Lawton or Fayettville. Have you been to any of those three?) Better reading comprehension please. For example, you clearly misread the "turds and mediocrities" reference. Try again.

2. yes, the Army has concentrated on engineering and ignored languages, cultural studies, communications and all sorts of other fields that might actually have won some wars for us.

Technology is nice but pictures are often far more important. And we are still very amateurish when it comes to that sort of thing.

[jkm_101_fso]

1. I of course said nothing of the kind. (Ok, I don't have much good to say about Killeen or Lawton or Fayettville. Have you been to any of those three?)

Lived in two, currently in one of them. Never had any issues; of course I'm one of those mid-western hicks you despise.

Although, in the 72 hours I spent in NYC, I was propositioned by two prostitutes, had my life threatened, had some Israeli guy try to hustle me in pool at a bar, and paid $13 for a can of Copenhagen.

I went to ROTC Camp with a kid from Cornell. I had to show him how to read a map...and take his M-16 apart...and use his MRE heater.

Folks from all walks of life contribute in their own way. No one type of person has the patent on how to be a successful Army officer.

[Massengale]

Since, there is absolutely NO reasonable reliable current method of ranking schools in any form or fashion. Since, in many cases the best academic schools and the best ROTC programs are joined sets. Since, most of the Ivy Leagues are liberal arts programs, and the military has always decreed that they are interested in engineering talent (oh since Thomas Jefferson and the Morrill Acts of 1862 and 1890).

I wonder why you have such an unfathomable derision for people from the south, midwest and inter-mountain region of the United States. I've never run into this kind of egregious cultural centrism in Bozeman, Durango, Kalamazoo, or Champlain. You continue to refer to people from anywhere but the coasts as turds and mediocrities among other unflattering derisive terms.

You also failed to notice that I mentioned two midwestern schools and one southern school as examples of "elite" schools. To make the engineers happy I'll add Caltech, CMU and MIT as examples.

[Massengale]

to try and refocus this so it doesn't become a free-for-all my point is this:

1. The Army is racially diverse but culturally homogenous.

2. Although the causes of this homogenity are multiple, one of its effects is that it is self-perpetuating.

3. Although this homogenity is cost-effective for the Army in raw dollars, it has been quite costly in the long run due to 2nd order effects...such as a chasm between policy makers and the Army and...well....sucking at COIN.

[Ken White]

to try and refocus this so it doesn't become a free-for-all my point is this:

Best way to avoid that in my observation is to avoid name calling on places and people who do not meet your standards.

1. The Army is racially diverse but culturally homogenous.

Essentially correct -- what's your recommendation for change?

2. Although the causes of this homogenity are multiple, one of its effects is that it is self-perpetuating.

True, see my question 1.

3. Although this homogenity is cost-effective for the Army in raw dollars, it has been quite costly in the long run due to 2nd order effects...such as a chasm between policy makers and the Army and...well....sucking at COIN.

Again, correlation is not causation -- the Army doesn't do COIN well simply because it eschewed it doctrinally and trainingwise for almost 30 years at the direction of a number of very senior, not company grade and generally not from the South persons (Specifically and in turn: from / College : MA/USMA; CA/UCB; KS/USMA/Rhodes Scholar; PA/USMA; NY/USMA/Dual MAs Harvard; PA/USMA; MA/Norwich/MA UNH; OK/USMA; HI USMA/MA Duke). In fairness, one of the PA guys and the Hawaiian tried to reverse that neglect but the system just outwaited the first mentioned and went back to what it does best, little change. The second became OBE. One of the worst at killing and burying COIN was the Rhodes scholar. Notice the thread -- no common state other than the two from PA...

Do recall that COIN is only one Army mission; cultural sensitivity is not a requirement in warfighting (trust me on that) -- really not even in COIN because, as I noted earlier, the lapses you cite are command problems, not individual cultural error attributed to people whose greatest flaw seems to be that they do not think the way you do.

I'm also suggesting that the dominant cultural environment of the Army is hostile to people from the coasts.

I spent 45 years in and working for it; my observation was not that, it was that the dominant cultural environment was hostile to people from the coast (or anywhere) who expressed an obvious sense of superiority and disdain for those not so anointed...

That, I believe is due to the coastal 'gentlemen' not demonstrating some of that cultural sensitivity that you mention they intrinsically possess and you seem to prize. Hicks are like that in responding to pseudo elitism. It's a Scotch Irish thing...

P.S.

Been to Fayetteville, avoided the others; full of Earthlings, no place for an old airborne sweat -- the trick if you get back to Bragg is to go west, to Troy and points west, get out in the small towns away from post. Or you can just go to DC and meet kindred spirits...