Quote Originally Posted by Uboat509 View Post
This is a tribal society. It has been for something like 4.000 years. Any "solution" that does not account for that will fail. I have listened to commanders talk about this issue and complain that by creating these neighborhood watches, we are creating tribal militias at the expense of the IA and IP and we are diminishing the power of the centralized elected regional government. That argument completely ignores the fact that the IA, the IP and the centralized elected regional government also have tribal ties and loyalties. Even Saddam Hussein had to make deals with the more powerful tribes. Either we co-opt the tribes into working with us, or at least in the same direction, or we go home.

SFC W
While I do not disagree with your point about the IP and the IA, this is a circular argument. Because of the loyalty issue we are creating counter forces to the others and you bet your bottom dollar that is weakening any pretense of a government built on democratic lines. Since building such a government was among the litany of reasons for this effort, proceeding down this tribal path merely demonstrates the futility of the democracy effort in the first place.

Yes Saddam bought off the tribes. His tribe the Tikritis enjoyeed pride of tribal place. He also ruled with a degree of cruelty needed to keep the tribes in line as well as the larger issues of sectarian and ethnic divisions. We will not do that and that always was the number one tool for persuasion in Saddam's tool box.

Reality is such a pain...

It'll take two generations, minimum, to build a truly nationally loyal Iraqi security forces structure.
Ken I would say 2 if not more to even get the ideas across.

Best

Tom