Saving their Souls in Fallujah?

[selil]

The unformulated question in my mind is could this be an example of America producing our own radical Christian analog to Al Queda? That is likely a poor way to phrase it, but this Marine went against all of his training, did something so far from mission, and all of this following another severe incident involving the physical destruction of the Koran.

If it isn't psyop/IO on the part of Al Queda they aren't trying hard enought.

It could just be media sensitivity to the issue rising from the previous incident.

When patterns start to emerge there is usually agency behind them even if we don't understand it.

Musings sorry.

[Ron Humphrey]

The unformulated question in my mind is could this be an example of America producing our own radical Christian analog to Al Queda? That is likely a poor way to phrase it, but this Marine went against all of his training, did something so far from mission, and all of this following another severe incident involving the physical destruction of the Koran.

If it isn't psyop/IO on the part of Al Queda they aren't trying hard enought.

It could just be media sensitivity to the issue rising from the previous incident.

When patterns start to emerge there is usually agency behind them even if we don't understand it.

Musings sorry.

The key things to remember here are

1- Soldiers have a mission and that is to secure a population so that it's governance can learn how to take care of it.
The key thing missing in the thought processes behind both incidences (besides perhaps a little bit of psychosis in one) is the understanding that for that population the one thing they have felt secure in throughout all the crap in their recent history is their faith(emphasis added). As a soldier the issue of whether their faith is correct or even fair is irrelevant but as a human being our soldiers also carry beliefs which help them make it through trying times.

The real question is how to get everyone to accept that if you truly believe what you believe then it can and will speak for itself through your actions, words. I don't think this soldier sat at home making up those coins but probably some very caring individuals here who don't know the culture nor see the implications on a mission they don't understand probably provided them.

That said there is a point at which we should set forth limits for our actions in so far as if we become expected to put aside our own beliefs and yet are required to be receptive to the local messages then we are failing to set the example of freedom of religion within our own ranks. This is an area where we simply let actions speak louder than words. We probably just need to work harder on making sure our soldiers know what that really means.

(more musings)

[wm]

Religions that focus on eschatology, which BTW includes the whole Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, tend to be much more focussed on what happens in the afterlife than in the current life. As a result, such true believers have little problem with martyrdom and the effects on the living of other actions that they may take in this world, as long as those actions do not hinder the actors' chances of achieving a better state in their afterlives. For example, I heard a minister say, post 9-11, that he was not really concerned about the increased danger of flying--he viewed it as a blessing because he might die sooner and, therefore, be reunited with God sooner. He said he had no fear of death since death brought a greater reward for him. He also had no real concern with the impact of his plane crashing on the other passengers and those who might be in the path of the debris.

I think it is probably pretty hard to engage in a rational argument with those who hold ardently to such beliefs about the impact of one's actions in the here and now on the folks who continue to live on after that person goes to his/her "reward."

[marct]

The unformulated question in my mind is could this be an example of America producing our own radical Christian analog to Al Queda?....

When patterns start to emerge there is usually agency behind them even if we don't understand it.

You know, Sam, you folks have had your AQ analog for quite some time now both at the ideological level (e.g. the Moral Majority, some of the extremist White Supremacist groups, etc. BTW, I'm not saying they are the same outside of their analog as fanatical ideological groups ) and at the level of action cells (the Militia movements, etc.).

Religions that focus on eschatology, which BTW includes the whole Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, tend to be much more focussed on what happens in the afterlife than in the current life. As a result, such true believers have little problem with martyrdom and the effects on the living of other actions that they may take in this world, as long as those actions do not hinder the actors' chances of achieving a better state in their afterlives.

Good point, WM. The type of radical transcendentalist theology that really pushes the eschatalogical agendas in this tradition usually doesn't change until its believers get their faces rubbed in it. For Judaism, it was the period from 68 bce to 135 ce that did it, for most of Western Christianity, it was the Thirty Years War and its aftermath. So far, no analog fr Islam comes to mind...

I think it is probably pretty hard to engage in a rational argument with those who hold ardently to such beliefs about the impact of one's actions in the here and now on the folks who continue to live on after that person goes to his/her "reward."

True. And have you also noticed that, in its extreme form, it also never seems to impact their judgement of what will happen to them in the afterlife?

[wm]

You know, Sam, you folks have had your AQ analog for quite some time now both at the ideological level (e.g. the Moral Majority, some of the extremist White Supremacist groups, etc. BTW, I'm not saying they are the same outside of their analog as fanatical ideological groups ) and at the level of action cells (the Militia movements, etc.).

Actually, I think it has been around in what was to become the USA since around 1620 when a group of folks landed at Plymouth Rock.

Good point, WM. The type of radical transcendentalist theology that really pushes the eschatalogical agendas in this tradition usually doesn't change until its believers get their faces rubbed in it. For Judaism, it was the period from 68 bce to 135 ce that did it, for most of Western Christianity, it was the Thirty Years War and its aftermath. So far, no analog fr Islam comes to mind...

It has a habit of resurrecting itself (pun intended) until it gets slapped back down through other corrective belief experiences--I think most folks can identify further, more modern examples for Judaism after the Zealot Rebellion or Bar Kochba. And WWI played an analogue to the 30 Years War for Christianity IMHO. I think the latter half of the 19th Century and the establishment/success of the modern Israeli nation state ought to be belief correcting experiences for eschatological Islam but, for reasons that elude me, have not yet become such.

[Cavguy]

Good comments by all.

I actually am surprised it took this long for an incident like this to happen, given the strength of the evangelical movement inside the military. I'll never forget walking patrol in Tal Afar past a poor Iraqi kid in a 'Jesus Loves Me' t-shirt that obviously had been given out by a prior unit. No one had an objection, but I'm not sure anyone in that particular dirt poor area could read English.

[120mm]

Good comments by all.

I actually am surprised it took this long for an incident like this to happen, given the strength of the evangelical movement inside the military. I'll never forget walking patrol in Tal Afar past a poor Iraqi kid in a 'Jesus Loves Me' t-shirt that obviously had been given out by a prior unit. No one had an objection, but I'm not sure anyone in that particular dirt poor area could read English.

My own experience was kind of the inverse of this. When we encountered Iraqi vendors in the opening days of OIF I, they were well-stocked with "Christian" paraphenalia and were vainly trying to sell it to us. Icons, crosses, coffee cups, t-shirts, decorated bibles, you name it, they were trying to push it on us...

Unfortunately for them, I think their marketing was based on an incorrect assumption of that same "evangelical movement inside the military". (We WERE "Christian Invaders" after all) Much is made about this supposed "movement", but in reality, I think it has more to do with American society's radical move to atheism, while the military isn't moving that direction quite as fast.

My experience, as a Christian in the US Army, is that the vast majority of soldiers are much more interested in getting laid, getting drunk, getting high (without getting caught, of course) and avoiding work (extra points are awarded if you work harder to avoid the work, than just doing the work itself, of course....) more than proselytizing....

But I'm interested in how many of the higher ranks become "neo-Christians" once they take command/get in que for a choice, promotable job....

[marct]

Hi WM,

Actually, I think it has been around in what was to become the USA since around 1620 when a group of folks landed at Plymouth Rock.

Could be - there is certainly a long history of millennial movements in the US, and they tend to be the ones who produce extreme fanatics.

It has a habit of resurrecting itself (pun intended) until it gets slapped back down through other corrective belief experiences--I think most folks can identify further, more modern examples for Judaism after the Zealot Rebellion or Bar Kochba.

Possible. I suspect that both the Expulsion from Spain and the 16th century millennial movements in Eastern Europe (e.g. Sabbatai Sevi) could play a part in it.

And WWI played an analogue to the 30 Years War for Christianity IMHO.

I would agree that it did so for the concept of unilinear evolution (e.g. progress towards perfection; sort of the secular eschatology developed by Social Darwinists and others). For Christianity itself? I don't know about that, although maybe for Christianity in Europe.

I think the latter half of the 19th Century and the establishment/success of the modern Israeli nation state ought to be belief correcting experiences for eschatological Islam but, for reasons that elude me, have not yet become such.

I suspect that the process goes back to a combination of Hoffer's observations on True Believers and to having a geographical locus for a religious group and seeing that religion being used as an excuse to smash the geographic locus. Just a guess, but it might be worth following up.

[Sarajevo071]

The unformulated question in my mind is could this be an example of America producing our own radical Christian analog to Al Queda?

Do you mean something like this?

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

[SWJED]

Do you mean something like this?

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

... Sarajevo. No, if you think that "Jesus Camp" is representative of our culture you'd be mistaken by magnitudes.

[marct]

Do you mean something like this?

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

... Sarajevo. No, if you think that "Jesus Camp" is representative of our culture you'd be mistaken by magnitudes.

Great to see you back! The "Jesus Camp" stuff is definitely not representative of US culture - far be it from me to say what is . So, what are the Safali and Wahabi boards saying about the incident?

Marc

[Rex Brynen]

Sarajevo's point, however, was that the film depicted "our own [US] radical Christian analog to Al Queda," not that it was representative of US mainstream culture.

(Of course, despite some of the statements on the film, the camp's graduates don't typically engage in mass-casualty attacks on civilians.)

[Sarajevo071]

Sarajevo's point, however, was that the film depicted "our own [US] radical Christian analog to Al Queda," not that it was representative of US mainstream culture.

THANK YOU !

Finally someone will read and understand words without having his bias implying something that was NOT said.

[Adam L]

Sarajevo's point, however, was that the film depicted "our own [US] radical Christian analog to Al Queda," not that it was representative of US mainstream culture.

(Of course, despite some of the statements on the film, the camp's graduates don't typically engage in mass-casualty attacks on civilians.)

Good point.

What scares me about people who can be manipulated so easily is that I'm not sure how much it would take to get them to do something. I'm not saying they are going to pick up crowbars and start killing Muslims off the bat, but little stuff. Even being manipulated to look the other way scares me. When looking at the videos out of some mega churches, what worries a lot of people overseas (and here) is not that people are radical right now, but rather how easily manipulated they are or appear to be. They wonder what would happen if tomorrow or twenty years from now their minister starts preaching that they go out and smash the windows (or kill) of a ________ (Circle one: Muslim, Hindu, etc.) What I think is feeding these perceptions in the ME is that they look at us and they see themselves.

Although I believe this is very untrue for a very large majority of the population, I worry about those few who are that malleable. All it takes is a few radicals and enough people who are indifferent too or afraid and so remain neutral.

It's not just in the religious right that many people see it, I see the same thing happening in the far left. It's just another form of fundamentalism.

I have to state that in no way do I think we are anywhere near this now, but in a generation or two I worry about it. Again, nothing on the level of Al Qaeda, but I start to worry. (I am stating that I am in no way saying US mainstream culture is like this, but after watching some of they guys on tv in the middle of the night I can understand how one might think that.)

Adam L

[Sarajevo071]

I have to state that in no way do I think we are anywhere near this now, but in a generation or two I worry about it. Again, nothing on the level of Al Qaeda, but I start to worry. (I am stating that I am in no way saying US mainstream culture is like this, but after watching some of they guys on tv in the middle of the night I can understand how one might think that.)

Adam L

As long those people have U.S. Military to do fighting and killing for them there is no need for any Christian militia to start doing that on they own... If one have state apparatus and power behind him, there is no need to have revenge groups like that. Saying that, you are completely right pointing on those groups who are crawling on late night tv and calling for Armagedon.

My opinion is, they are looking for official U.S. policy to support them and stand behind them (something like Jewish state behind zionist policy) with they military and financial support. Something maybe McCain can do since he openly welcomed John Hagee support... Not to say that Obama or Clinton are against supporting zionist or neocon policy without any question. They are ready stated such in they recent speeches.

I think, we all have many reasons to be afraid all of that.

[Sarajevo071]

... Sarajevo. No, if you think that "Jesus Camp" is representative of our culture you'd be mistaken by magnitudes.

Where did I said that!?

[marct]

Where did I said that!?

You didn't say that . It's a really good example of how extremist groups can come to be seen as "representative" of a culture, especially when they aren't . Actually, it's a good example of how stereotyping works, especially when there is a propaganda message associated with the stereotype. That, quoth he taking the conversation back to the Fallujah Affair, is why I was asking about what was being said on the Safali boards.

Marc

[Sarajevo071]

You didn't say that . It's a really good example of how extremist groups can come to be seen as "representative" of a culture, especially when they aren't . Actually, it's a good example of how stereotyping works, especially when there is a propaganda message associated with the stereotype. That, quoth he taking the conversation back to the Fallujah Affair, is why I was asking about what was being said on the Safali boards.

Marc

Oh, one can easy imagine what they saying, right?! That is clear proof of "Americans trying to convert Muslims", "they are finally admitting what they are doing all this years", etc. Same old rhetoric from people who self appoint them self to safe guard religion... Never actually explaining if one is strong in they beliefs and have knowledge, why would one be afraid of someone else's talk or beliefs!?

[marct]

Hi Sarajevo,

Oh, one can easy imagine what they saying, right?! That is clear proof of "Americans trying to convert Muslims", "they are finally admitting what they are doing all this years", etc. Same old rhetoric from people who self appoint them self to safe guard religion... Never actually explaining if one is strong in they beliefs and have knowledge, why would one be afraid of someone else's talk or beliefs!?

Ah yes, the same old stuff! Honestly, I really loved your last point - why should they be afraid if they are strong in their beliefs?