Hi Sarajevo, I had a problem downloading the document you posted yesterday so I did not read it. My fault completely. I have now downloaded and printed out a copy. I will read it and respond later.
Hi Sarajevo, I had a problem downloading the document you posted yesterday so I did not read it. My fault completely. I have now downloaded and printed out a copy. I will read it and respond later.
There is one matter : we seem to talk about two things.
The assault itself is one matter - do some research on hostage situations and you'll see how difficult Nod-Ost was. Show me another operations where 417 operators magaged to prevent blowing entire building up and killing hostages (Chenens planned to execute hostages - that's the way the decision was made).
The lack of medical support is other problem, we all know that it was done wrong.
If You and others say that Russian wanted simply "kill'em all" - they colud do this at once when they arrived.
Piervomayskaya and Budionnovsk. There wasn't even CT operations - simply, there was a total chaos with generals from all branches, MPs, goverment officials and finally Alpha and Vitizaz wich commanders' arguments noone wanted to listen...Of course media after in course and after those events were full of "experts" who blamed Spetsnaz - maube because it sounds good in TV...and it couldn't harm one politican or another
Alpha's vendetta...sorry but I don't buy it. Simply.
Authorites lied (Cynic would add - wich one never lie?) but, simply to be fair one cannot tell simply "all was wrong, and thay's all".
But… Seams to me you still didn’t read that Doc. Please do. They are saying things there about explosives and real intentions of hostage takers.Originally Posted by Robal2pl
Like you can see, I am avoiding to say my own opinion (it just my opinion and everyone have one) but rather using they (people who was there) words.
I mention Pervomaiskaya and Budyonnovsk like another example of careless Russian attitude toward they own civilians… I can find you more examples from war in Grozny.
I don’t intend to change your opinion about Russians. Just wanted to give you answer why I am thinking this way. I have my answers, proofs and I believe that they are truthful.
That’s all.
cheers
Hi Sarajevo !
I often wondered, do the Russians have professional negotiators for such law enforcement situations ?3.2.1. Refusal to negotiate so as to minimize the number of hostages
To justify the use of force to resolve the situation, the authorities later asserted that the terrorists had put forward technically impossible terms. However, it is evident from the investigation materials that the problems arose for the sole reason that no authorized persons or professional negotiators had been invited to the process.
They have in the past always employed their military assets, not their police. I understand the reasons and I have nothing against that scenario, but military forces are not normally trained for hostage negotiations. This was a strike team and I doubt negotiations were ever part of the original equation.
I agree, the government authorized the use of this 'special agent' without considering the after affects and what would be needed immediately for the victims. But again, they employed special operations forces who probably had no intention nor idea what the outcome would require. Their concern was the terrorists IMHO !3.2.2. Use of a "special means" without estimation of its effect on human life and without necessary medical aid facilities
As has been said above, special services used a special agent “to neutralize terrorists” in the situation that made it impossible to provide immediate medical aid and control individual dosage each hostage received.
What do ya think ?
Regards, Stan
The Report Came To The Same Conclusion
Hi Guys, Just finished reading the report. Here is a quote form the report.
3.2.3 Organization of Medical Aid from the second paragraph
According to the conclusion made by the Commission, the excessive number of victims was caused by the negligence of officials responsible for providing medical aid to the injured.
I think this is the same conclusion that I and Robal2pl came to. The Commission was called the "Union of Right Forces" it included medical,counter terror, and eyewitnesses to the rescue attempted.
And I was looking on:
3.2.2. Use of a "special means" without estimation of its effect on human life and without necessary medical aid facilities
3.3.1. Incompleteness of investigation and discrepancies in the statements made by Public Prosecutor’s Office
3.3.2. Falsification of the forensic medical examination of the reasons of death of hostages
Hm. OK. I understand what you saying and I do agree that they weren’t ready. But my point is that they could not be ready since they didn’t know what is going on, when, which agent is used, how much (Alfa used to much), and when they start coming on scene some of them was stopped and delayed, organization of triage was non-existent for the same reasons… If you watch that BBC documentary “Terror in Moscow”, you can hear narrator saying something like:
“There was not enough stretches or doctors. Sleeping hostages all ready fighting for breath was carried out with heads rolled back, arms and legs faced up in the air. Dozens simple choked on they own vomit… Or swallow they tongs. They were plenty of antidotes to the gas, but too few medics to give a jabs. Hostages died in they seats, on the front steps of the theater on the floor of the city buses that were sent to ferry them to the hospitals…” (You just need to see how they soldiers carried them out, dragging or over the shoulders and stacking them up outside, and you will understand.)
See, for me those who have tactical command, organizational responsibilities and power of decision and to order other what to do, where to be and how to behave are responsible! In my mind, you can not blame fireman for coming to late to extinguish the fire and paramedics to save people who got burned in house where you started the fire. By the law and by natural order of things, you are to blame. Not them. But, I could be wrong again.
Instead to wait, organize everything, negotiate in meantime, give them some and get some people out. Remember, Chechens did not kill anyone there and all the time they were saying that they want to talk. Those two hostages was shoot by accident and when they release them they was sure to point out multiple times to live hostage to tell police that they were not to blame for that shooting.
Ultimately, I think we all arguing right thing only from different perspectives.
....
(Very interesting commentary by Russian woman hostage, on the end of BBC documentary movie putting in perspective this and that "Suicide bombings" talk...)“But those women have families, children… They told us their husbands and brothers had been killed. What would I have done in they shoes? I think I’d done the same as them. Now I carry on for my little boy’s sake. But if he’d died too and I was left with no-one I think I, too, would have strapped on a bomb-belt and gone to blow my self up.”
Helo Stan
I have no clue about they negotiators. I would like to think they do, but. Even in Beslan, going in SCHOOL military and SF used flamethrowers and tank fire!? I would think you don't need to have train negotiators to tell you not to fire tank rounds on the school. Go in tactical with overwhelming force and take them down. Simple.
Exactly my (humble) opinion. No much regard for the civilians. I could be wrong, but don't they supposed to save civilian life and rescue hostages!? I mean they are Hostage Rescue teams, right?
Np. Slapout9.
Just another look on same theme but from non-official side and some better details, I believe.
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