Duffers Drift Redux: Nightmare on Wazir Street

[Juan Rico]

having just read fmfm 1a (http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/pdf/fmfm_1-a.pdf), i couldn't help but notice the difference in the proportionate-ness of the artillery response in wazir street (i have no war experience by the way) to operation david as illustrated.

and was reminded of the lt. col. burke's explanation, "one of our first rules is proportionality. a disproportionate response, like using an M1 tank [or in this case artillery] against a couple of lightly armed mujaheddin, turns us into Goliath. it is a great way to make the locals hate us so much they will fight us. it also makes us look like cowards."

is this a marine/army difference? thanks in advance for your explanations.

[Tom Odom]

Although I am not a fan of Lind's 4GW model--the only thing that really makes sense to me is the quote, "My head hurts" above the insert on Operation David, I would not attribute the differences between that fictional vignette and the one we put in Wazir street to a difference between Marines and Army.

Understand that the motivation behind Wazir street was not fictional--it was personal in that the author had lost troops in combat who charged in when tactical patience would have achieved the sought after end state--killing the bad guys without killing civilians or losing friendlies. I believe that is a shared value between Marines and Army.

There is a decent discussion of Excalibur in USA Today

Tom

Army buys more accurate artillery shells
By Tom Vanden Brook, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — The Army has accelerated purchasing a high-tech artillery shell that can be fired from as far away as 14 miles yet explode within 30 feet of its target to avoid civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, Army officials and analysts say.

An urgent request from commanders in Iraq for more accurate artillery to reduce civilian deaths prompted the Army to speed production of the Excalibur shells, according to the Government Accountability Office. In May, the Army awarded an $85 million contract to buy Excaliburs — the most ever spent for the shells.

[jkm_101_fso]

Capt. Victor Scharstein, whose 1st Cavalry Division unit fired the Excalibur at insurgents in Baqouba, vouched for the shell's accuracy. "It may take me 20, 30, 40, 50, upward of 100 rounds to destroy a target" with conventional artillery, he said. "Now I'm attacking a target with one or two rounds."

My current BN CDR was the BDE FSO for Scharstein's unit...he had nothing but great things to say about the excalibur, other than the CFF needs to be extremely accurate.

[Cavguy]

having just read fmfm 1a (http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/pdf/fmfm_1-a.pdf), i couldn't help but notice the difference in the proportionate-ness of the artillery response in wazir street (i have no war experience by the way) to operation david as illustrated.

is this a marine/army difference? thanks in advance for your explanations.

Having served in MNF-W, the Marines have no more or less compunction than the Army in employing artillery or airstrikes in urban terrain when required.

The theater guidance is the same for all services. Implimentation rests on the front line commanders. I have never seen a systemic difference, but one that varied by the region each commander was in.

I will say I fired more arty and airstrikes in MNF-W in 2006 in a month than we did in all of Tal Afar over a year.

Finally, realize that employing GMLRS or Excalibur is far different than a conventional fire mission. Without going too far down the classifed route, these weapons have highly focused effects that minimize collateral damage.

[Steve Blair]

Having served in MNF-W, the Marines have no more or less compunction than the army in employing artillery or airstrikes in urban terrain when required.

The theater guidance is the same for all services. Implimentation rests on the front line commanders. I have never seen a systemic difference, but one that varied by the region each commander was in.

I will say I fired more arty and airstrikes in MNF-W in 2006 in a month than we did in all of Tal Afar over a year.

Finally, realize that employing GMLRS or Excalibur is far different than a conventional fire mission. Without going too far down the classifed route, these weapons have highly focused effects that minimize collateral damage.

He's also referring to the DNI stuff, which is created for the 'notional' Austro-Hungarian Marine Corps....sort of Lind's play army when it comes to his theoretical writings. It can be hard to tell the difference, especially if you just pick up one of those things without the cover...something that makes one wonder at times.

[Cavguy]

He's also referring to the DNI stuff, which is created for the 'notional' Austro-Hungarian Marine Corps....sort of Lind's play army when it comes to his theoretical writings. It can be hard to tell the difference, especially if you just pick up one of those things without the cover...something that makes one wonder at times.

Ahhh ... DNI

I have read that paper before. I guess it put me off at the beginning with this:

America's greatest military theorist, Air Force Colonel John Boyd, used to say,

That said, overall it's not bad.

Most of the concepts are sound counterinsurgency guidance dating back to the 60's, with the requisite DNI 4GW propaganda mixed in to make it seem "new".