EFPs; the new AK-47?

[bourbon]

There is a quote in a Time article by Bob Baer regarding EFP's worth sharing:

A former CIA explosives expert who still works in Iraq told me: "The Iranians are making them. End of story." His argument is only a state is capable of manufacturing the EFP's, which involves a complicated annealing process.

I cannot debate the veracity of it, so I don't know. Thank you Adam L. and J.C. for your insight on this matter, the migration of EFP's is something I have been wondering about, and I'm confined to public sources only.

One question I have for ordnance guys:
How different are EFPs seen today, compared to the device used by Badder-Meinhof (suspected) to kill the Chairman of Deutsche Bank in '89? A device which I believe was an EFP or shaped charge. In terms of technological advances, skill needed to manufacture, sophistication...

[Stan]

Hey Bourbon !

There is a quote in a Time article by Bob Baer regarding EFP's worth sharing:

I cannot debate the veracity of it, so I don't know. Thank you Adam L. and J.C. for your insight on this matter, the migration of EFP's is something I have been wondering about, and I'm confined to public sources only.

Back here in the former East Bloc, we'd call it little more than a game of cat and mouse. However, we outnumber the criminals (well, we feel certain we do), and, we gather them up one at a time. This is not a combat zone, and the criminals do not have free access to sufficient explosives. Trying to figure out what the IEDs are intended for here is difficult (vs Iraq and Afghanistan), so we concentrate on where the raw materials are most likely to come from, and what or who is the likely client, and follow leads in conjunction with LE.

One question I have for ordnance guys:
How different are EFPs seen today, compared to the device used by Badder-Meinhof (suspected) to kill the Chairman of Deutsche Bank in '89? A device which I believe was an EFP or shaped charge. In terms of technological advances, skill needed to manufacture, sophistication...

If you mean the infrared trigger device used to kill Alfred Herrhausen, then nothing new in this part of the world. We've seen far more complicated devices assembled by disgruntled security personnel as early as 1987 and as late as 1991. Ours were in apartment buildings bringing down 7 stories with no apparent target nor advanced warning or threat.

You barely need 9 VDC even for most crude detonators from WWII. How you get the juice to the detonator is little more than reading the owners manual from a remote controlled car to a home security system.

BTW, we don't really care what color the wires are when employing a water canon

[bourbon]

If you mean the infrared trigger device used to kill Alfred Herrhausen, then nothing new in this part of the world. We've seen far more complicated devices assembled by disgruntled security personnel as early as 1987 and as late as 1991. Ours were in apartment buildings bringing down 7 stories with no apparent target nor advanced warning or threat.

Yeah, the Herrhausen device. From my understanding it was an IR trigger hooked up satchel of explosives and a copper plate. A spotter armed the device by remote as the car was approaching, and the Mercedes passing through the IR beam triggered the bomb sending a copper projectile into rear-passenger door. It sounded similar to these EFP's Iraq.

Security personnel putting bombs in apartment buildings? You were in Moscow during September 1999?

[Rank amateur]

Thanks JC. Very interesting; keep finding them. Stay safe.

[Stan]

Hey Bourbon !

Yeah, the Herrhausen device. From my understanding it was an IR trigger hooked up satchel of explosives and a copper plate. A spotter armed the device by remote as the car was approaching, and the Mercedes passing through the IR beam triggered the bomb sending a copper projectile into rear-passenger door. It sounded similar to these EFP's Iraq.

If you look back to the mid and late 80s, US Military Attachés fell victim to very similar attacks in the middle east, even with the protection of light armored vehicles. The triggers then were components from just about any Radio Shack (breaking or passing through a beam). The 'plate' was propelled through the driver's-side armor, decapitated the driver, and continued through the passenger side armor.

Someone had far too much time to think about defeating his/her target, and his target was too into his routines to pay sufficient attention !

Security personnel putting bombs in apartment buildings? You were in Moscow during September 1999?

Basically an inside job that went very wrong. Not in Moscow, but Estonia for over 10 years. We had more than a (UXO employed) detonation a day in the mid 90s (Mafia related) and in the late 90s, an IED a month. The bomb maker had an extensive engineering background placing home made linear charges on major structural foundations and also employed infrared triggers (from home alarm systems) for his VOIEDs.

[Abu Buckwheat]

There is a quote in a Time article by Bob Baer regarding EFP's worth sharing:

Fascinating discussion. I am not sure how accurate that suggestion is about all EFPs in Iraq being Iranian. I have imagery of Sunnah Insurgent EFPs that are crude, much larger than the Iranian EFPs and made in a local machine shop. Unfortunately, they work too.

With regards to the entire discussion about the EFPs being the new AK, I agree that the Stinger analogy is close but EFPs were used extensively by Hezbolah against the Israelis in their 18 year insurgency. I think the Iraqi/Iranian made examples are having some impact like Hezbollah's, but not in numbers strong enough to be real deal killers with the theater level impact that the Stingers had on the Soviets. Their deployment just racheted up the level of stress for convoys, defeated heavy tank units and caused a new and significant risk when out of the wire.

Personally, I think 122mm/155mm IEDs tripled up or quadrupled up into Super IEDs are the real AKs (machetes ) of the future as they are cheap simple and have killed FAR more of us than EFP have. Now if EFP manufacturing and distribution by China or Iran goes global and you can buy them on the black market for $10 like an RPG round then we will have real trouble in our future.

[120mm]

Fascinating discussion. I am not sure how accurate that suggestion is about all EFPs in Iraq being Iranian. I have imagery of Sunnah Insurgent EFPs that are crude, much larger than the Iranian EFPs and made in a local machine shop. Unfortunately, they work too.

With regards to the entire discussion about the EFPs being the new AK, I agree that the Stinger analogy is close but EFPs were used extensively by Hezbolah against the Israelis in their 18 year insurgency. I think the Iraqi/Iranian made examples are having some impact like Hezbollah's, but not in numbers strong enough to be real deal killers with the theater level impact that the Stingers had on the Soviets. Their deployment just racheted up the level of stress for convoys, defeated heavy tank units and caused a new and significant risk when out of the wire.

Personally, I think 122mm/155mm IEDs tripled up or quadrupled up into Super IEDs are the real AKs (machetes ) of the future as they are cheap simple and have killed FAR more of us than EFP have. Now if EFP manufacturing and distribution by China or Iran goes global and you can buy them on the black market for $10 like an RPG round then we will have real trouble in our future.

I have to agree with Abu, here. In my guise as an Airplane mechanic, I come into contact with many talented machinists who can make absolutely *anything*, regardless of the available equipment.

One man, in particular comes to mind, who, on his breaks, turned a little solid chunk of titanium into a sphere of titanium, using only a small gas torch, a hammer and an anvil. He did this, just to prove it could be done, as "everyone knows" it is impossible.

I also know a man who makes ultra-precise machine lathes and end-mills out of pieces of junk. I've been in Iraqi machine shops, and I don't see why they cannot make anything they'd like to, provided they're competent, creative, and know where to look for the science side of it.

[Rank amateur]

Thanks Stan. Very interesting.

I have to agree with Abu, here. In my guise as an Airplane mechanic, I come into contact with many talented machinists who can make absolutely *anything*, regardless of the available equipment.

I agree, but after two minutes on wikipaedia my list of amateur expertises now includes metallurgy. annealing of the cap is complicated and it's needed to increase ductility.

If I understand correctly, and it's possible that I don't, if they don't change the metallurgical properties of the copper disk, it'll fracture instead of producing the shape needed to puncture armor. (Or at least heavy armor.) If the cap is the production bottleneck, however, I'm sure Iran is stockpiling them in dispersed locations and there's no reason Iran couldn't have people smuggle the caps in their pocket and have the rest of the device made locally.

[Stan]

Thanks Stan. Very interesting.



I agree, but after two minutes on wikipaedia my list of amateur expertises now includes metallurgy. annealing of the cap is complicated and it's needed to increase ductility.

If I understand correctly, and it's possible that I don't, if they don't change the metallurgical properties of the copper disk, it'll fracture instead of producing the shape needed to puncture armor. (Or at least heavy armor.) If the cap is the production bottleneck, however, I'm sure Iran is stockpiling them in dispersed locations and there's no reason Iran couldn't have people smuggle the caps in their pocket and have the rest of the device made locally.

RA, I don't have my A&P like 120 obviously does, but as a professional mechanic in strange places (countries), we heat the material, perhaps hammer for annealing and quench... and.... voila

EDIT: Rapid cooling will create harder metal and slow cooling will result in a softer material.

Regards, Stan

[J.C.]

Talking about diameters, hiding, and logistics we just found a real piece of work in my AO today. The quality was class A work. 10 in diameter made to look like Iraqi curbs. I if you've been to urban centers in Iraq you will have probably seen their curds. They look like 1 1/2 foot by 3 feet cubes. the problem is they are torn up every where and then placed on top of the medians. During an average patrol I will see any where between 35-50 of these blocks in the medians of Known EFP areas.

Whats more scary is they have hidden the command wires using the spiders web of Iraqi electrical grids occansionally almost making them impossible to spot and run them back to a safe vantage point. The worst I have seen is a single array ( 1 fake block) with 4 8in plates inside with 2 single array 10 in kickers placed around. We would have had a real bad day had they not been found.

Some are so well hidden that they blend in seamlessly with damaged curbs and use a PIR sensor with time delay to catch the later vicks in a convoy.
Others which are made of class A stuff have been set upwards of 30 ft of the road or placed behind Alaska barriers!! No way to see the device or command wire. Trust me they will go through it, they will then go through our armor.

EFPs are a shia weapons, never seen a Sunni EFP, maybe a crappy shape charge, but not an EFP. Another fun fact EFPs where developed by a west pointer for use in oil drilling to punch through difficult rock and give less back blast and heat. Imagine that oil bitting us in the butt agian.

Logistical all the quality stuff is importated, sometimes in components. But, thats rare and we can tie those to high level guys known to have had training out of country some where to the east I've also seen mosques used as drop of points as well as cars as mobile cashe. The machinary to make the disk is also limited or the expertise. Through CSI stuff you can often trace the disk like bullets back to the same press or milling machine.

Someone mention quick drop off, it takes 2 minitues to set up a LRCT EFP. They see you coming cause misdirection and place it, bad day ensues.

[Stan]

Good Post, JC !

Talking about diameters, hiding, and logistics we just found a real piece of work in my AO today. The quality was class A work. 10 in diameter made to look like Iraqi curbs.

As I recall from a 06 report, CEXC's IED analysts not only found concrete street-side curbing, but also rendered safe sheep and dog carcasses

[120mm]

Thanks Stan. Very interesting.



I agree, but after two minutes on wikipaedia my list of amateur expertises now includes metallurgy. annealing of the cap is complicated and it's needed to increase ductility.

If I understand correctly, and it's possible that I don't, if they don't change the metallurgical properties of the copper disk, it'll fracture instead of producing the shape needed to puncture armor. (Or at least heavy armor.) If the cap is the production bottleneck, however, I'm sure Iran is stockpiling them in dispersed locations and there's no reason Iran couldn't have people smuggle the caps in their pocket and have the rest of the device made locally.

Without going into it in detail, I can think of at least three ways you can precisely anneal a copper disk to varying degrees, using cheap, and/or free materials. I would need to waste about three EFPs to make it "right".

But that's all I'm going to say about that. A good machinist who knows basic metallurgy could turn out EFPs pretty easy, provided he had the luxury of being able to waste some material doing testing.

[Rank amateur]

Without going into it in detail, I can think of at least three ways you can precisely anneal a copper disk to varying degrees, using cheap, and/or free materials. I would need to waste about three EFPs to make it "right".

You convinced me.

For the record I have no interest in amateur EOD.