Should Military Recognize State Concealed Carry Licenses

[carl]

Stan:

Couldn't all the arguments you made be just as easily be made against concealed carry laws in general?

[Stan]

Stan:

Couldn't all the arguments you made be just as easily be made against concealed carry laws in general?

Hey Carl,
You always seem to pop in with hard questions

Having lived on many military bases with obscure firearm laws, spent many years in Africa armed, and lastly my horrific childhood in Maryland, I'll say no, my arguments do not apply across the board. Of all the strange places I've lived, I felt a whole lot safer on base (a US Military base at home) than outside the fence.

I hate to coin the current phrase "if we take away everybody's guns, then only the criminals will be carrying", but I'm certain that's the case.

I sympathize with the general population... If we get rid of the criminals then I'll get off my soap box about needing a firearm (other than for hunting and sport).

As a former LEO where do you stand

[carl]

As a former LEO where do you stand

I never had any objection to concealed carry laws. I couldn't see why a citizen should be denied something that I wasn't. The laws seem to have worked out well. There is something about going to the law and saying "I am going to carry a gun" that keeps out the riff-raff. On patrol you try and always assume somebody might have a gun anyway and conduct yourself accordingly. Carry laws don't change that.

I have never been in the service. Guys like you and Ken have a much greater appreciation of the special problems that might arise on a domestic base. Having lived on a big base overseas, one of the things that drives people wild is Big Army (or big whatever) treating everybody like a child. Some kind of carry provision on domestic bases might do a little bit to to relieve that. On the other hand, Big Army probably would make it so onerous as to not be worth it.

On domestic bases too there didn't used to be the possibility of attack on soldiers for being soldiers. After Ft. Hood and the plot against the base in New Jersey that is a real possibility now. Allowing soldiers to carry weapons, concealed or otherwise, would make attacks much more problematical for the would be terr, and probably make them less likely. And it would allow the soldiers on the base to feel like something more than a victim in waiting.

Bases in the US make their own rules anyway so if they wanted to keep civilians from carrying concealed weapons, they could do that. They could draw the line wherever they wanted. They could limit it amongst military personnel how they wanted also, age limits, rank limits, behavior limits etc.

On the whole I think it would be good. But it would require the services to trust their people in the same way the states trust their citizens.

[Stan]

I never had any objection to concealed carry laws. I couldn't see why a citizen should be denied something that I wasn't. The laws seem to have worked out well. There is something about going to the law and saying "I am going to carry a gun" that keeps out the riff-raff. On patrol you try and always assume somebody might have a gun anyway and conduct yourself accordingly. Carry laws don't change that.

I don't see the need for an across the board concealed permit. There's got to be a better method available. Much like you opined, the weapon should be out in the open. That would in fact then support your theory about Hasan. It would be staring him in the face -- although the crazies I've encountered didn't seem to mind that I was also evidently armed.

Some kind of carry provision on domestic bases might do a little bit to to relieve that. On the other hand, Big Army probably would make it so onerous as to not be worth it.

It wouldn't just be Big Army calling the shots anymore and the first incident would be the last time we discussed this topic

On domestic bases too there didn't used to be the possibility of attack on soldiers for being soldiers. After Ft. Hood and the plot against the base in New Jersey that is a real possibility now. Allowing soldiers to carry weapons, concealed or otherwise, would make attacks much more problematical for the would be terrorist, and probably make them less likely. And it would allow the soldiers on the base to feel like something more than a victim in waiting.

Bases in the US make their own rules anyway so if they wanted to keep civilians from carrying concealed weapons, they could do that.

This is where I disagree most. Those two incidents should have never seen the light of day and they are far from the first. So Hasan gets a firearm and gets on base. Too many MPs just waving us on by with barely a glance at the base sticker. So what if it takes time to get on base.

When I was at Bliss just about everybody and their grandma had a firearm in their pickup. Those that weren't out in the open ended up on base without as much as an ID check. Hasan proved that theory works.

They could draw the line wherever they wanted. They could limit it amongst military personnel how they wanted also, age limits, rank limits, behavior limits etc.

On the whole I think it would be good. But it would require the services to trust their people in the same way the states trust their citizens.

I'll site five of the worst events I was involved in where age, rank and behavior weren't enough of determining factors.

1980, a 2ID NCO freaks out on the rifle range and downloads a 20-round mag on the entire firing line. Damn good thing his bolt jammed or he'd have reloaded and commenced all over again. We never did figure out which screw came loose !

1981, a communications PFC returns from guard duty just behind me in the line to the armory with a still loaded/round in the chamber, M16. When I asked him to not point that at me and unload it per post rules, he stuck the barrel in my face. With no place to run and hide, I kneed him in the balls and grabbed the weapon as shots rang off into the air.

1990, a Marine Gunny just returns home and does in his family and then himself.

1991, a Marine CPL leaves his post and heads to the "react room" and promptly does Russian Roulette with his S&W model 10.

1998, a former NCO and communications specialist performs Russian Roulette with his Colt Commander

IMO there's enough reason not to grant across the board anything.

[carl]

I don't see the need for an across the board concealed permit. There's got to be a better method available. Much like you opined, the weapon should be out in the open. That would in fact then support your theory about Hasan. It would be staring him in the face -- although the crazies I've encountered didn't seem to mind that I was also evidently armed.

I can't second guess you nor Redleg regarding on base concerns. You guys been there, me no. So any questions I ask will just be questions, or observations.

As far civilian concealed carry, I think it works well enough, not perfect but well enough. I don't know exactly what you mean by across the board concealed permit, but there is no reason not to have restrictions on the mentally ill and others who pose a concern. I read once that a pattern of repeated traffic violations is a red flag so you could even tie the permit to that.

In the civilian world, one of the arguments in favor of concealed carry is that the criminal can't see who is armed and who isn't. Therefore he has to keep in his small mind that anybody might be. That idea helps protect even those who aren't

This is where I disagree most. Those two incidents should have never seen the light of day and they are far from the first. So Hasan gets a firearm and gets on base. Too many MPs just waving us on by with barely a glance at the base sticker. So what if it takes time to get on base.

When I was at Bliss just about everybody and their grandma had a firearm in the pick-up. Those that weren't out in the open ended up on base without as much as an ID check. Hasan proved that theory works.

If somebody wants to get an illegal firearm in they will. It just isn't practicable to search each vehicle so thoroughly as to prevent it. Concealed carry would have no effect on that at all.

I'll site five of the worst events I was involved in where age, rank and behavior weren't enough of determining factors.

1980, a 2ID NCO freaks out on the rifle range and downloads a 20-round mag on the entire firing line. Damn good thing his bolt jammed or he'd have reloaded and commenced all over again. We never did figure out which screw came loose !

1981, a communications PFC returns from guard duty just behind me in the line to the armory with a still loaded/round in the chamber, M16. When I asked him to not point that at me and unload it per post rules, he stuck the barrel in my face. With no place to run and hide, I kneed him in the balls and grabbed the weapon as shots rang off into the air.

1990, a Marine Gunny just returns home and does in his family and then himself.

1991, a Marine CPL leaves his post and heads to the "react room" and promptly does Russian Roulette with his S&W model 10.

1998, a former NCO and communications specialist performs Russian Roulette with his Colt Commander

IMO there's enough reason not to grant across the board anything.

All those incidents are tragic or potentially tragic. But (don't hit me) they are neither here nor there as far as concealed carry goes.

I never had any thing like what happened to you happen to me, but I am always surprised how hostile people sometimes get when they are told not to fool around with a weapon.

Let's face it, other than a few MOSs just how many are effectively trained by the US Army to use a handgun, yet alone draw and accurately fire a concealed handgun under pressure ? I once attended a 6-day anti-terrorism course where we were firing over 400 rounds a day. We were anywhere from arm's length to 3 meters from our targets. Even after that burnout course, some of the student's targets looked like they were hit with 00 buck instead of a double tap from a 9mm !

My opinion is most people who apply for CCW are interested in guns and practice on their own. People with an interest and who practice can pretty often get it right.

[Stan]

I can't second guess you nor Redleg regarding on base concerns. You guys been there, me no. So any questions I ask will just be questions, or observations.

Hey Carl,
I wasn't looking for more than your thoughts as an LEO, and what takes place on base generally takes place elsewhere, but with far less discipline.

As far civilian concealed carry, I think it works well enough, not perfect but well enough. I don't know exactly what you mean by across the board concealed permit, but there is no reason not to have restrictions on the mentally ill and others who pose a concern. I read once that a pattern of repeated traffic violations is a red flag so you could even tie the permit to that.

Sorry, somewhere in this thread was a hint of "across the board" grants, not you per se.

The Estonians use driving infractions to determine whether a gun owner can continue to use and/or carry a firearm. It's obviously one of many indicators, but seems they threaten withdrawal of carry permits to keep the speeders in line. Hmmm, wonder if a hunter that took more than his seasonal permit, could have his driving license suspended

In the civilian world, one of the arguments in favor of concealed carry is that the criminal can't see who is armed and who isn't. Therefore he has to keep in his small mind that anybody might be. That idea helps protect even those who aren't.

Good point !

If somebody wants to get an illegal firearm in they will. It just isn't practicable to search each vehicle so thoroughly as to prevent it. Concealed carry would have no effect on that at all.

I would think that beefing up gate security would still affect some similar to current laxed standards at airports.

All those incidents are tragic or potentially tragic. But (don't hit me) they are neither here nor there as far as concealed carry goes.

I was more or less commenting on your post about the means available with which the military could screen potential candidates for concealed carry on base. My point being rank and age did not play any significant role. They were all nut cases and most in positions of responsibility (which, by default granted them access to firearms).

My opinion is most people who apply for CCW are interested in guns and practice on their own. People with an interest and who practice can pretty often get it right.

My point was basically in response to the best of the best in today's Army. There are not that many of us that are specifically trained like most LEOs to draw and fire a concealed weapon... it's not the Army way