Recognizing Distinct Types of Insurgency - "Know the type of conflict you are in."

[Bob's World]

One thing I do believe strongly when it comes to defining things is that if one is creating something one can define that thing to whatever it is we want it to be; but, if instead we are seeking to understand some natural thing existing in nature, it is what it is, and will not conform itself to our cultural or institutional bias, or become what the senior man in the room declares it to be.

Popes and Generals are often made fools in this regard.

[TheCurmudgeon]

One thing I do believe strongly when it comes to defining things is that if one is creating something one can define that thing to whatever it is we want it to be; but, if instead we are seeking to understand some natural thing existing in nature, it is what it is, and will not conform itself to our cultural or institutional bias, or become what the senior man in the room declares it to be.

Popes and Generals are often made fools in this regard.

Truer words ...

... the reason I largely no longer bother with this stuff. My head is too bloodied from smaking it against tables and walls.

[omarali50]

On the question of Islam and ISIS etc

http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksd...the-dream.html

[slapout9]

On the question of Islam and ISIS etc

http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksd...the-dream.html

omarali,
Great post.

[Bob's World]

The weakest part of Galula is his perspective on the role of his own nation in the insurgencies he dealt with through his life. He could see the people and the domestic government with great clarity and insight, but was blind to causal role of France. He brought that blindness with him to the US and shared it with us, so that we too could be blind to the causal role of the US in the insurgencies we intervened within.


COIN should be limited to domestic operations only. Anytime one thinks they are doing "COIN" abroad they are likely acting in ways that will make the underlying problem worse for their efforts. This is true regardless of how inept the host governance is, or how non-existent it is. If you don't plan to stay and force the place and the people who live their to submit to your governance, then you are not the COIN force. Making that one small fix in US COIN doctrine would save us Trillions of dollars, thousands of lives, and tons of influence around the globe.

[slapout9]

The weakest part of Galula is his perspective on the role of his own nation in the insurgencies he dealt with through his life. He could see the people and the domestic government with great clarity and insight, but was blind to causal role of France. He brought that blindness with him to the US and shared it with us, so that we too could be blind to the causal role of the US in the insurgencies we intervened within.


COIN should be limited to domestic operations only. Anytime one thinks they are doing "COIN" abroad they are likely acting in ways that will make the underlying problem worse for their efforts. This is true regardless of how inept the host governance is, or how non-existent it is. If you don't plan to stay and force the place and the people who live their to submit to your governance, then you are not the COIN force. Making that one small fix in US COIN doctrine would save us Trillions of dollars, thousands of lives, and tons of influence around the globe.

That is very true. That is why I keep bringing up Karpman's triangle. When two people start fighting and a third person intervenes it can end up being a disaster for the intervening person since the original 2 combatants may unite and fight the third party together.


Galula also made this point it was ALL originally called Revolutionary War, Galula decided to change that slightly by calling it COIN and confusing everyone to a certain extent.

Revolutionary War=Political Action(non violent black proganda,fraud) + Guerrilla Action (violent action by armed civillians). The political was primary,guerrilla was secondary or supporting. Hence the famous 80% poilitical vs 20% military quote on COIN by Galula.

[Bob's World]

Revolutionary War=Political Action(non violent black proganda,fraud) + Guerrilla Action (violent action by armed civillians). The political was primary,guerrilla was secondary or supporting. Hence the famous 80% poilitical vs 20% military quote on COIN by Galula.

But that is just tactics. There are many paths (tactics) up the mountain (good governance), and when the government seeks to deny some segments of the population access to the mountain, or to block effective, legal routes up the mountain, the population will go without permission and cut their own path. THAT is revolution.

[TheCurmudgeon]

COIN should be limited to domestic operations only. Anytime one thinks they are doing "COIN" abroad they are likely acting in ways that will make the underlying problem worse for their efforts. This is true regardless of how inept the host governance is, or how non-existent it is. If you don't plan to stay and force the place and the people who live their to submit to your governance, then you are not the COIN force. Making that one small fix in US COIN doctrine would save us Trillions of dollars, thousands of lives, and tons of influence around the globe.

I had to stare at this paragraph a long time with my head slightly askew while years of Army training butted heads with logic. Then, as my Army training lost the battle, I came to the conclusion that you are right.

I guess if we are doing COIN we are doing it really small and in an advisory capacity, assuming it is a true revolutionary insurgency and not an invasion masked as an insurgency (Ukraine) and it has not reached the point where the insurgents have declared a seperate state (ISIS). Am I reading you correctly?

[Bob's World]

For me one must apply the flagpole test.

Go the capital of the place you are at to deal with an insurgency, find the tallest flagpole and look to the top of that pole. If it is the flag of your nation, you are conducting COIN, but if is the flag of anyone else, you are not.

COIN is not unlike parenting. If you are at home dealing with your own children you are parenting. But if you go to a neighbor's home to help them with their children you are not parenting. To think you were parenting would lead to a disaster of undermining their role as parents and regardless of how good your intentions or actions, would probably not leave a functional family behind when you leave to go home.

We understand this intuitively in operations of the scale of a family - but for some reasons lose all common sense when we scale it to the national level, rationalize our actions with interests or threats, and label it "war."

But it is the same damn thing.