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| PMCs and Entrepreneurs Applied capitalism. Making money in the war zone, and the issues that go with it. |
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#1 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 156
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#2 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ft Leavenworth Kansas
Posts: 167
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Not a lawyer, but I would not be to quick to think this will be a blanket law and will have an effect on all contractors since UCMJ would apply to DoD contractors. Alot of PMC contractors work for State Dept or " other". Not sure but as everything else, I would be willing to bet that law will get chewed up by the corp lawyers.
Everyone hates them, but knows they are not getting anything done without them. Just my 2 cents. More info on this can be had here also: http://ipoaonline.org/journal/index....=136&Itemid=30 Last edited by sgmgrumpy; 01-05-2007 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Other sources |
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#3 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,182
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During the Kosovo campaign, Halliburton was hauled before a Congressional hearing over price gouging. It seems Halliburton was really gouging on plywood. H. told the committee that if they didn't like it they could hire someone else to do the work:end of hearing. I simply call H and others "camp followers" but their connection to the people of Iraq is primarily economic which binds the people to them better and stronger than they are to military forces. Screw with the camp followers and they will simply move to a new location leaving a bunch of unemployed people in their wake who will have nobody to blame but the military for their loss of jobs. A purple finger or a paycheck? Which would you want? One 'Lifer' wanting to push some new rules could cause more problems than you can imagine.
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#4 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: DC Area
Posts: 23
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This is unworkable on so many levels, especially irt the press. I wouldnt expect this to last.
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#5 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Camp Pendleton, CA
Posts: 304
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Via Colonel Patrick Lang's blog:
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#6 | |||||
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: CenTex
Posts: 221
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The question is whether a conviction obtained would withstand appeal to the Supreme Court.
See Reid v. Covert 345 US 1. I am not a lawyer or student of the law, so I would welcome them to criticize my work. Something I wrote a few years ago: Quote:
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#7 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 41
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Well, there are two items of interest that apply:
1) The Federal Acquisition Regulation does tell contractors up front about circumstances of applicability in clause 222.225-7040, Contractor Personnel U.S. Armed Forces, etc. This is spelled out in the contract, so there shouldn't be much of a surprise. 2) CENTCOM's lawyers also have the deployed contracting officers putting a notification in contracts warning contractors about the applicability of MEJA. (NOTE: For legal advice in your state, please consult a lawyer. Sandbag is NOT a lawyer, but knows a thing or two about contract law). |
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#8 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Charleston Illinois
Posts: 61
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Does this mean I can finally tell morbidly obese contractors wearing ACU to meet 600-9 requirements? Or to take their headgear off in the chow hall? Or to blouse thier boots and roll their sleeves down?
Man this could be the start of something good. The only problem I see, is that I will have to spend a lot of time making spot corrections.
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#9 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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No Slack!!!
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#10 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 83
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I've never seen any grounding in reality in the discussion over applying UCMJ to contractors. My unanswered concerns:
As far as Fed Acq Regulations, FARs needs to be implemented fully and I'm not sure we've canceled or let expire all the contracts that bypassed FARs. There's an implication in FARs that if you don't do the job correctly, you'll be fired and replaced by another vendor. How many times has that happened? Have the contracts been been rewritten to make PMC produced reports gov't reports or are they still corporate property like Aegis's 200 pager compiled after the "Elvis Video"? Do based commanders have any insight (or new authority for that matter) over contractors, or is it still informal and haphazard? It will be interesting to see the first case play out. |
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#11 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DeRidder LA
Posts: 3,949
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Quote:
short answer: No longer answer: you can try but will only get frustrated The sleeves is an infantry thing, BTW Tom |
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#12 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 41
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You'd likely die of exhaustion if you take it on yourself, but yeah, you can do that. I'd rather have you go to Fort Belvoir and start with most of the personnel assigned there, first.
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#13 | |
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord, MA
Posts: 3,043
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DefenseLink, 6 Apr 08: Civilian Contractor Charged With Assault Under Military Law
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#14 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Singapore/Australia
Posts: 24
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It would be interesting to see how this turn of events might pave the way for increased usage of PMCs on the ground, if there is sufficient trust that's nurtured in the long term..
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#15 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Rancho La Espada, Blanchard, OK
Posts: 1,036
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does not apply to contractors hired by other USG agencies (e.g. State which hired Blackwater).
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#16 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: CenTex
Posts: 221
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Civilian Contractor Convicted at a Court Martial
June 23, 2008. Quote:
I guess we have to wait and see. |
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#17 | |||||||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 3,571
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at least, some of us think that is true.
In short, Reid v Covert has probably not withstood the positive changes in the military justice system since it was decided - and it was decided well before the era of PMCs (and PICs based on the changes at CIA and other agencies). Here are some background sources on Section 552 (now Article 2(a)(10) of the UCMJ). Quote:
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-------------------------------------- The updated MCM 2008 incorporates Section 552. Quote:
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----------------------------------------------------- An excellent article, which presaged the 2007 amendment, is here. Quote:
The guts of Jacobson's article - the erosion of the anti-UCMJ cases since Solorio v. United States, 483 U.S. 435 (1987) - are found at pp, 10-17. Because of the expanded role of PMCs (whether engaged by DoD or other agencies, for that matter), the Congressional enactment of amended § 802 (a) (10) suggests that the test will hinge on the existence of an "armed conflict" and whether the contractor accompanies ("supports the mission of") the armed forces. That has already been recognized in The Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act of 2000: Quote:
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#18 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Rancho La Espada, Blanchard, OK
Posts: 1,036
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but the way I read them, Blackwater, escorting Embassy officials doing Embassy business, under contract to the State Department would be excluded. Big loophole that could be closed easily if the President would simply designate a single commaner whether military or the Ambassador.
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#19 | ||||||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 3,571
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Big loopholes could abound in this legal area. For example, if the US ambassador were the "commander", a very basic issue is whether the UCMJ would apply at all to civilians under his "command" (UCMJ implies a military situation).
The general questions would be whether an armed conflict exists in the HN, whether US armed forces are involved in the conflict; and whether civilian contractors are supporting a military mission or a diplomatic mission. We also have to know: 1. The terms of the US-HN SOFA (if any) and any other relevant international agreements. 2. The terms of inter-agency co-operatrion in the HN. 3. The terms of the civilian contracts - e.g., an individual could waive constitutional rights (jury trial, etc.) and agree to be tried under the UCMJ - in cases where Art. 2(a)(10) provides a jurisdictional basis. For a general overview see. Quote:
Some of these intra-agency issues are covered in this 2003 manual (13+ MB at site below; there is a smaller .pdf file, 5+MB on my computer, which is somewhere on the Net) Quote:
The various legal issues are addressed in the ongoing updates to the Operational Law Handbook (5+ MB) from the Judge Advocate General's Legal Center and School. Quote:
and for 2007 Quote:
See, CHAPTER 7, CONTINGENCY CONTRACTOR PERSONNEL (CCP), starting at p. 127, with reference to Art. 2(a)(10) here (p. 140 - p 148 in .pdf file). Quote:
For a huge collection of military law links, go here. http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/awc-law.htm For a study course for unit commanders, go here. Quote:
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#20 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,058
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is totally boggled...
Thanks for all that. |
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