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Old 06-24-2016   #1
slapout9
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Thumbs up UK Declares Independence From The EU!

The United Kingdom has declared Independence from the European Union..... aka Euro-Commies. The Brave British citizens stood up to massive globalist propaganda and declared their freedom.

Hail Britannia
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Old 06-25-2016   #2
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http://brownpundits.blogspot.com/201...story-and.html

Interesting times..
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Old 06-25-2016   #3
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The United Kingdom has declared Independence from the European Union..... aka Euro-Commies. The Brave British citizens stood up to massive globalist propaganda and declared their freedom.

Hail Britannia
BUT WAIT....at what cost?...they complained about EU yearly fees but the value loses of the FTSE yesterday equaled 40 years of EU payments........and it literally wiped out UK/US pensioner investments along the way and drove up UK gasoline prices by 10%

Google released the top ten Google searches after the Leave won.....the top ones were
1. What is the EU
2.How many countries are in it
3. What do we get from the EU
4. what is Article 50

Then Scotland is leaving within the next two years

Then N.Irland raises it head again

Then the French at the Calais crossing stated......start your own border controls now in Dover not in France and take the refugees camped here with you

Then if you see the voting breakdown the over 65s voted to Leave and the majority of the youth 18-30 voted to stay thus the older generation deprived the younger generation that opportunity of living and working in Europe......

THEN Leave argued investments would continue to flow into UK...THEN interviewed large companies to include Airbus UK stated when we leave there will be massive reviews of investments and we know what that means AND all major US corporate headquarters setup in the UK as they speak English and were in the EU have started indicating a relocation rethink...

THEN the London Banking City will be moved as they can no longer deal in EU funds and bonds since they are not a member.....estimated job loss...100,000

THEN what will the border look like between Ireland and N.Ireland

THEN..THEN and more then......

Then this headline this morning;
Cornwall votes for Brexit and then pleads to keep EU funding
Cornwall receives millions of pounds in EU subsidies every year
Cornwall received over 675M Euros in support subsidies from 2007-13
NOW they are complaining well the Leave told us the EU funding will continue....even if we vote against

THEN the UK is waking up today to realize that hundreds of EU jobs and EU Parliament positions and their jobs are gone in two years AND that they will need a visa to travel to say Spain where they have second homes and by the way their NHS healthcare coverage will not be accepted in the EU...

BTW...if one looks at the amounts of EU subsidies for low income rural areas that flowed into the areas that voted to Leave....it is simply amazing what the amounts are...so yes they voted to Leave BUT kneecapped themselves in the process

Appears that the Brits had simply no idea about what the heck the EU was and or just how much subsidy support they did receive.....

WHAT is amazing is that when one analyzes the reasons why Leave won...much support came from rural and or towns/villages that had high unemployment, poor schools and a history of over 40 years of neglect by the UK central government as everything in the UK is driven out of London.

So in fact it was a major slap in the face against "poor governance" and the EU took the place of London.

Now the next day they are fully realizing exactly what they did in fact do to themselves both in driving the UK apart as well as their own financial future...

BUT what do we hear from the Leave politicians...hey we want a Norway model..forgetting that Norway must adhere to EU regs and laws, that they must adhere to certain levels of EU control AND they must pay an annual fee that ain't cheap AND have no vote in what the EU does....

So having "won back" their government and country appears to me to have been a "hallow victory"...

BTW...during the Leave interviews yesterday the Leave side started hinting and backing away from their constant statements we will trigger Article 50 immediately and replaced it with well maybe triggering in 2018 and goin into effect in 2020 thus continuing to eat their "cake" and still complain.....

That was countered by the EU which stated the reforms promised to UK prior to the referendum are no longer valid and they want the process to start immediately in order to assure the financial markets that this will not drag out over years.....

THEN Leave countered.....you cannot tell us when to trigger Article 50.....EU Commission response read the fine print of Article 50 and what the Leave side failed to understand even written in English was the simple fact that the EU envisioned a government coming in and submitting Article 50.

EU commission legal beagles now state that the Referendum supported by the civil society is a valid replacement to triggering Article 50 as the Leave clearly put to the people stay or leave and the people ran to Leave...thus fulfilling Article 50.

So if this was a victory I truly would hate to see what defeat looks like.......

BTW...EU is indicating that the negotiations with UK will be hard in order to not cause a domino effect......meaning others than want to potentially leave believing they will get a good deal when they leave.....

What is amazing is that those that want to leave have profited the most money wise from the EU rural development funds to the tune of BILLIONS......

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Old 06-25-2016   #4
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@Outlaw: Lots of good questions and points.


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Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
The United Kingdom has declared Independence from the European Union..... aka Euro-Commies. The Brave British citizens stood up to massive globalist propaganda and declared their freedom.
Indeed, finally a poorer DisUnited Kingdom or possible Little Britain will likely be able to have migration and taxation without representation...

The whole experiment will be interesting to watch from a macro and micro point of view. So far I have a hard time to figure out the plan of the Leavers, but surely there is a clear and logical one after their honest and thoughtful campaign.

Anyway the best of luck. Hopefully only Will Griggs will be on fire in NI and an eventual exit by Scotland will not cause too much economic pain on both sides of the border.
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Old 06-25-2016   #5
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Default Yesterday's personal thoughts

I wrote the below in response to a SWC member's question, what did I think today? Today I have read several good commentaries and may in time answer some of the points made here.

Greetings from a slightly bewildered UK, everyone expresses surprise at the referendum result. A friend in the Labour Party was at the count in Birmingham, they were all astounded and realise lots of re-thinking is needed.

I did not stay up through the night, but watched one hour of reporting at 0730hrs and watched David Cameron's statement.

What is really odd is that last night, after the polls had closed, Nigel Farage (UKIP) stated Remain had won by 4%. I did not watch the polls during the campaign.

I have for weeks thought that the Remain campaign could backfire. One, the electorate could use the referendum to bash all the politicians and the interventions of outsiders, big business and others was counter-productive. Then the Remain campaign stupidly relied on a mix of dire threats, notably economic forecasts and simply "trust us".

It was clear two weeks ago that the Labour Party, who had IMHO conducted a lacklustre campaign, were finding their supporters on the doorstep strongly opposed to Remain. Yes, immigration was one issue and more so in areas where there was little diversity or where recent immigration was concentrated.

Personally I wanted to Exit, even if those campaigning did not appeal to me. I have regretted for many years voting Yes in the 1975 Referendum, on remaining a member of the EEC.

Put simply I did not want to be part of a European super-state, which is the EU's over-riding objective. The EEC morphed into the EU and simply marched on-wards minus any democratic mandate, let alone accountability to the people. Nor has the EU been that successful, including in the security field - where it should not have ventured - and NATO is more than adequate, with faults.

My reasons are political, not economic, but it is quite clear the Euro has been destroying the economies of several Southern / Mediterranean members. There remains the prospect of one or more defaulting on loans, on a scale far greater than Greece.

Yes there will be a long-term price to pay. One that is not very clear; will the EU "play ball" or be hostile?

Domestically I am not convinced Scotland really wants to exit the UK. That could alter if the negotiations with the EU are painful. Northern Ireland is in far weaker position, in part due its precarious economy and the strength of the Unionist vote.

Who will be the next Conservative leader? I have no idea. A lot will depend on who the MPs think can win the next General Election, which now could be sooner rather than the scheduled 2020.

Finally I do rather like David Betz's (Kings War Studies) recent WoTR column and this passage in particular:
Quote:
The European Union is a kind of Titanic. In the minds of its designers it was supposed to be impregnable to icebergs — in fact they reckoned that the striking of icebergs and ensuing moments of crisis were vital inflection points in which further steps towards political integration might be achieved. Most Remainers proclaim they want to stay in it to reform it, which they cannot do. Some seem genuinely to think everything is a-okay, which it is certainly not. The debate in Britain is essentially about whether it is better to stay on the sinking ship until it sinks or to jump before it sinks. Either way it is sunk.
Link: http://warontherocks.com/2016/06/why...it-i-cant-say/

Best wishes and thanks for reading.
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Old 06-25-2016   #6
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Default Some of the best commentaries

One of the few measured commentaries yesterday:
Quote:
Historian and constitutional expert Lord Peter Hennessy looks back at British history to evaluate the significance of the referendum result. The Attlee Professor of Contemporary British History at Queen Mary University of London was speaking to the BBC's Diplomatic Correspondent James Robbins.
Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36625209

One of his passages:
Quote:
The only thing comparable in my lifetime is the end of the British Empire, which, like this, was a huge geopolitical shift. But getting rid of the British Empire was done over many, many years and by and large in the time control of the British government of the day. It left very few scars on us.But this is sudden. This is guillotine time. This is quite extraordinary and in peacetime British history quite unprecedented.
One of better journalists who actually goes outside the London "bubble" for The Guardian:
Quote:
Brexit is about more than the EU: it’s about class, inequality, and voters feeling excluded from politics. So how do we even begin to put Britain the right way up?
Link:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/divided-britain-brexit-money-class-inequality-westminster?

I admire Peter Oborne's writing and in a rather futurist article he predicts much. He starts though with:
Quote:
It is a revolution by ordinary British people against a grasping political class which gave us Black Wednesday, the Iraq War and the financial crash of 2008. Essentially, this is a revolt by the provinces against London and the poor against the rich.
Link:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...nths-hold.html

A LSE academic has an obituary for David Cameron and what politics could become:http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpo...tical-chancer/
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Old 06-25-2016   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
I wrote the below in response to a SWC member's question, what did I think today? Today I have read several good commentaries and may in time answer some of the points made here.

Greetings from a slightly bewildered UK, everyone expresses surprise at the referendum result. A friend in the Labour Party was at the count in Birmingham, they were all astounded and realise lots of re-thinking is needed.

I did not stay up through the night, but watched one hour of reporting at 0730hrs and watched David Cameron's statement.

What is really odd is that last night, after the polls had closed, Nigel Farage (UKIP) stated Remain had won by 4%. I did not watch the polls during the campaign.

I have for weeks thought that the Remain campaign could backfire. One, the electorate could use the referendum to bash all the politicians and the interventions of outsiders, big business and others was counter-productive. Then the Remain campaign stupidly relied on a mix of dire threats, notably economic forecasts and simply "trust us".

It was clear two weeks ago that the Labour Party, who had IMHO conducted a lacklustre campaign, were finding their supporters on the doorstep strongly opposed to Remain. Yes, immigration was one issue and more so in areas where there was little diversity or where recent immigration was concentrated.

Personally I wanted to Exit, even if those campaigning did not appeal to me. I have regretted for many years voting Yes in the 1975 Referendum, on remaining a member of the EEC.

Put simply I did not want to be part of a European super-state, which is the EU's over-riding objective. The EEC morphed into the EU and simply marched on-wards minus any democratic mandate, let alone accountability to the people. Nor has the EU been that successful, including in the security field - where it should not have ventured - and NATO is more than adequate, with faults.

My reasons are political, not economic, but it is quite clear the Euro has been destroying the economies of several Southern / Mediterranean members. There remains the prospect of one or more defaulting on loans, on a scale far greater than Greece.

Yes there will be a long-term price to pay. One that is not very clear; will the EU "play ball" or be hostile?

Domestically I am not convinced Scotland really wants to exit the UK. That could alter if the negotiations with the EU are painful. Northern Ireland is in far weaker position, in part due its precarious economy and the strength of the Unionist vote.

Who will be the next Conservative leader? I have no idea. A lot will depend on who the MPs think can win the next General Election, which now could be sooner rather than the scheduled 2020.

Finally I do rather like David Betz's (Kings War Studies) recent WoTR column and this passage in particular:Link: http://warontherocks.com/2016/06/why...it-i-cant-say/

Best wishes and thanks for reading.
David.....as someone who has watched the EEC, then the EC and then the EU everyone knew that the easy part is trade and a central currency and how has watched UK vote to join in and now out...there is one underlining point that is well forgotten by all those countries that have joined the original five then six.

It is all about the money....and that I mean is mainly the only reason older many members and the latest new members ever had when joining.

The EU Rural development fund has been basically used by a turnstile revolving credit card to draw in BILLIONs in rural aid funds which have either been wisely or unwisely used by the member states.

BTW UK is no different......look at the total shock about now funding being cut off....the UK was the largest single member drawing massive amounts of EU research/education funding.....that will go away as well now.......and BTW the pay masters always being Germany followed by France and the Dutch.

If one really looks a the collapse and resulting financial problems of Ireland, Spain, Portugal, some degree Italy and especially Greece.....that credit card mentality drove a massive real estate bubble that burst in 2008 leaving billions in bad debts to be paid at some time in the future by the Germans, French and Dutch via the ECB...and notice the real estate bubble was and still is in the UK and it has now burst with a 12% sudden fall in house prices yesterday with the fall of the Pound.

The second reason to join was the sheer volume of internal EU trading that was and has been building over the years.....UK now has to fight to get into that again but this time with tariffs on their products and the standardization of safety and food standards that has benefits all members.

Let's look at the UK argument not to join the Euro...after the massive fall yesterday it take 1.22 UK pounds to purchase a Euro...and with further falling the sovereign credit rating being lowered to negative and S&P dropping the credit rating to AA the Pound will be cheaper than the Euro.

Immigration....was a smokescreen and racist in the end....when I came to work with Cisco in 1995 in the UK I had to wait 3 months and Cisco paid a massive legal fee to get the permit......now if UK needed specialists and experts they flowed across the border from other EU countries and the UK Customs guy would always sheer at me when clearing through Customs and question always about my work and where I was the same when clearing through Calais.

As UK is aging as it Germany is ...you and Germany need immigrants simple as that or did you all think the current "British/German population" was going to reproduce faster than the aging...never happen.

A recent study done here in Berlin indicated that if they are successful in integrating those that came......payments into social security and retire funds will actually increase not decease and in the tax earning over the long run balances out the current initial costs of the 1.2M refugees.

In the US we have seen something similar...all the illegal Mexicans Trump complains about and all those other illegals...well every year the US Social Security gets roughly 12B USD paid into them without questions asked by them since the illegals always used false SSA numbers to get jobs...and in the end they cheat themselves out of small pension for this but it pays US SS pensioners and the US SSA does not complain in the least.

So when the EU steps up and states member states must do this and that they scream and say...but.....we do not want controls from Brussels ALL still holding out their hands for the massive flowing development funds...

Are there problems, yes there are but nothing that a growing multinational nation state has not seen before and they are easy in the end to fix.....but with a growing populist movement that is getting harder since many are in the EU Parliament....and they do not want the problems fixed because then they have nothing to complain about.

But for the UK it is sad because you have robbed an entire young generation ie those from 14-18 who saw the EU as their future--for jobs, travel, education etc.....that disappointment will never be overcome by any future UK government.

And the break up will be hard and the UK will pay for being the first one as the EU founders want to show the others that talk about leaving just how hard it will be on them.

Today here in Germany....the German FM stated "we will not allow anyone".....anyone meaning the UK tak Europe away from us....

So in the end for a coming decade of recession and slow growth if at all....for losing a truly massive amount of "free funding" for the coming decades.....for losing massive amounts of funding for research/education. losing the freedom of movement for both healthcare, jobs and travel......over 40 years of poor UK political central governance.....

Was it in the end really worth it.....sadly not....
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Old 06-25-2016   #8
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Remain voters furious at Brexit-backtrackers who regret EU Leave result
http://huff.to/28S95Z4

What is now interesting is a number of things tied to the concept of outright lying, disinformation by those leading the Leave movement especially UKIP which claimed they would immediately begin spending 350M Pounds a "week" on the NHS and then in interviews after the vote quietly stated yes we lied...

To leave leaders stating the various regions of UK would not be losing the EU funding flows an if they did then the UK government would pick up the slack and the UK government has no money for that......

FOLLOWED by a large number of the UK MSM print media basically lying about the EU, raving untrue stories about immigrants, what goes on in the EU and how bad the EU was beating up on UK......AND the really big story....'we are being ruled in Brussels and we want our own government back" which they always had the last time I checked as the EU did not eliminate nation states and their governments........only to be disproved as basic lying....

Disinformation is just another form of info warfare.....The Sun is telling its readers how badly Brexit affects them, after telling them to vote for it. (Via Alex Merkin)
https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/1335...t-your-wallet/

Ironic that UK millenmials, stereotyped as lazy, entitled and whiny, are likely to have weathered two major recessions by their 30s.

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Old 06-25-2016   #9
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This deserves to go viral. The point about populism is that it is popular until it gets elected.
https://shar.es/1JLkwD via @digiday

My home town of Newcastle. This afternoon. I feel like I am back in the 1980s.

Some #Brexit trollers appears to believe that vote means EU has to accept their terms for new deal. Don't think so, other peoples in EU too.

Brexit crisis tops off rough stretch in Obama's push for legacy
http://reut.rs/28Y5kBG

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Old 06-25-2016   #10
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Oh my! Looks like Scotland and Northern Ireland may have a veto on #Brexit process - p 19
http://www.publications.parliament.u...om/138/138.pdf

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Old 06-25-2016   #11
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Not sure why immigration was an issue in the UK vote......

"Mass immigration" ...
The United Kingdom took 5.500 refugees from #Syria.
Germany took 305.000 since 2015.


BREAKING - Germany says six EU founding states want #Brexit to start 'as soon as possible' - @AFP

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Old 06-25-2016   #12
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The way the German MSM Bild's worldview changed since 1996 and the Daily Mail's hasn't says a lot about differences between German and UK political culture

Exclusive: Tata Steel bidders including billionaire tycoon Wilbur Ross get cold feet over UK's decision to leave EU.
http://goo.gl/IwRJww

'Leave' vote in #Brexit referendum was strongest in regions most economically dependent on EU

.@andrewmichta is spot-on that #Brexit will make Europe more inward-looking - unhelpful for US.
http://wp.me/p4ja0Z-Adv

UK already not part of Euro and Schengen and mentally absent for years, don't see much changing with Brexit.

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Old 06-25-2016   #13
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Outlaw09 cited in part:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
Not sure why immigration was an issue in the UK vote......
Immigration has long been an issue for the public to mutter about and sometimes has resulted in significant minority votes for extremist / nationalist parties - today UKIP, before them the BNP. The main political parties have simply ignored the discontent, anxiety and hostility.

We now know that Tony Blair's government quietly enabled significant immigration, from outside the EU - I do not have the figures or sources to hand, but a Google search will find them.

Then the initial restrictions on the 'new' EU nations coming to the UK were changed. Originally entry was permitted if employment had been found; the change enabled entry to search for employment.

In the last decade, maybe slightly more two million new jobs were taken by immigrants, out of IIRC three million jobs and whilst official unemployment figures show a reduction there is little sign of that in many places - especially outside London and the South East.

Yes, we have a problem with getting UK nationals to work, especially if the work is dirty, hard, involves long hours and the pay is low (even if the minimum wage has gone up). That is not a unique UK problem.

Resentment over "immigrants taking our jobs" and possibly depressing wages has become more vocal of late - before the EU campaign. As the referendum results suggest Exit support was highest in English areas with extensive new immigration, often where food processing is the biggest employer and those who fear immigrants are coming.

Add in the refugee crisis in the Mediterranean and it is easy to see how some parts of the Exit campaign exploited the fears and realities of immigration. Yes, very few Syrian refugees have made it here, but everyone knows there are thousands of migrants @ Calais mainly trying every day to enter.

Do not think immigration is a whites only issue, it is not and a good number of the "settled" immigrant communities, such as those from South Asia, also have concerns - especially as family reunions are harder to get permission for.
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Old 06-25-2016   #14
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Appears Merkel is willing to have continued economic turmoil until UK leaves..in the end that hurts not helps the Euro.....

Merkel sees no need to rush Britain into quick EU divorce
http://reut.rs/294nZt7

In an interview today in Sky a Brit business lawyer stated even the Brit/EU/US businesses want a date to work against.....not uncertainy....
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Old 06-25-2016   #15
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Try this passage to illustrate why immigration mattered:
Quote:
In Barking last week I watched this doughty victor over the BNP confront lifelong Labour voters, who would not listen. They had seen good car industry jobs replaced with warehouse work, zero hours contracts and insecurity. But what they hated most was the sudden cultural change with migrants arriving in large numbers in a short time.
(Ends) Denying those voters a voice helps explain why those anti-EU, anti-foreigner emotions erupted so disastrously on Thursday.
Link:https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...redum-campaign

Blair and immigration:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-public.html
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Old 06-25-2016   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
Outlaw09 cited in part:

Immigration has long been an issue for the public to mutter about and sometimes has resulted in significant minority votes for extremist / nationalist parties - today UKIP, before them the BNP. The main political parties have simply ignored the discontent, anxiety and hostility.

We now know that Tony Blair's government quietly enabled significant immigration, from outside the EU - I do not have the figures or sources to hand, but a Google search will find them.

Then the initial restrictions on the 'new' EU nations coming to the UK were changed. Originally entry was permitted if employment had been found; the change enabled entry to search for employment.

In the last decade, maybe slightly more two million new jobs were taken by immigrants, out of IIRC three million jobs and whilst official unemployment figures show a reduction there is little sign of that in many places - especially outside London and the South East.

Yes, we have a problem with getting UK nationals to work, especially if the work is dirty, hard, involves long hours and the pay is low (even if the minimum wage has gone up). That is not a unique UK problem.

Resentment over "immigrants taking our jobs" and possibly depressing wages has become more vocal of late - before the EU campaign. As the referendum results suggest Exit support was highest in English areas with extensive new immigration, often where food processing is the biggest employer and those who fear immigrants are coming.

Add in the refugee crisis in the Mediterranean and it is easy to see how some parts of the Exit campaign exploited the fears and realities of immigration. Yes, very few Syrian refugees have made it here, but everyone knows there are thousands of migrants @ Calais mainly trying every day to enter.

Do not think immigration is a whites only issue, it is not and a good number of the "settled" immigrant communities, such as those from South Asia, also have concerns - especially as family reunions are harder to get permission for.
David....

BUT this is what is not understood in Europe...UK is not part and parcel of “the Schengen Agreement” zone thus the so called "free movement of EU citizens" does not apply to UK...ALL the while UK citizens take advantage of Schengen to travel, work and reside in 26 different EU countries these days....does not quite sound right does it as it appears UK wants to eat the cake but refuses to provide the flour for the cake? ANd any outside the 26 countries coming in must have a Schengen visa thus would have been stopped in say Dover, Heathrow or Calais...

BUT THEN this
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...refugee-crisis

Quote:
British ministers including Theresa May and Philip Hammond have made hair-raising claims about the dangers of migrants entering the country. But do the facts bear them out?

There are countries with social infrastructure at breaking point because of the refugee crisis – but they aren’t in Europe. The most obvious example is Lebanon, which houses 1.2 million Syrian refugees within a total population of roughly 4.5 million. To put that in context, a country that is more than 100 times smaller than the EU has already taken in more than 50 times as many refugees as the EU will even consider resettling in the future. Lebanon has a refugee crisis. Europe – and, in particular, Britain – does not.

£36.95
Many claim that Britain is a coveted destination for migrants because of its generous benefits system. Aside from the reality that most migrants have little prior knowledge of the exact nature of each European country’s asylum system, it is not true that the UK is particularly beneficent. Each asylum seeker in Britain gets a meagre £36.95 to live on (and they are not usually allowed to work to supplement this sum). In France, whose policies are supposedly driving up the numbers at Calais, migrants actually receive substantially more. According to the Asylum Information Database, asylum seekers in France receive up to £56.62 a week. Germany and Sweden – the two most popular migrant destinations – pay out £35.21 and £36.84 a week respectively, only fractionally less than Britain.

50%
In the dog-whistle rhetoric of Hammond and Theresa May, the archetypal contemporary migrant in Europe is from Africa. But again, that’s not true. This year, according to UN figures, 50% alone are from two non-African countries: Syria (38%) and Afghanistan (12%). When migrants from Pakistan, Iraq and Iran are added into the equation, it becomes clear that the number of African migrants is significantly less than half. Even so, as discussed above, many of them – especially those from Eritrea, Darfur, and Somalia – have legitimate claims to refugee status.

76,439
Despite the hysteria, the number of refugees in the UK has actually fallen by 76,439 since 2011. That’s according to Britain’s Refugee Council, which crunched the numbers gleaned from UN data and found that the number of refugees in the UK fell from 193,600 to 117,161 in the past four years. By comparison, the proportion of refugees housed by developing countries in the past 10 years has risen, according to the UN, from 70% to 86%. Britain could be doing far more
Sorry but I cannot find any EU decisions that forces UK to take any and all immigrants so is really the so called immigrant problem of the UK actually one that the UK in handling their own immigrant policies have been doing it poorly and then blaming the EU???

Maybe it is not known inside the UK by many but even the EU put restrictions on the newer members on their Schengen concept and limited "freedom of movement" for countries like Poland, Romania, Bulgaria for up to four or five years...so to argue UK was going to be overrun is again simply a smokescreen.

BTW...had then the receiving UK communities applied for the EU Rural or Low Income Development Funds...they could have funded additional schools, hospitals and other local community improvements.....without ....having to burden the UK taxpayer as the rest of EU is currently doing.

Sounds like to me the UK does after 40 odd years...not know how to play the EU funding games...but that is not a problem of the EU......

IF we go back before the EU...the UK has always had a problem with immigration starting with passing out UK passports to those residing in the British colonies/British Commonwealth and THEN restricting them to come to the UK even with valid UK Passports so this so called immigrant problem has been there for literally years before the EU.

So to now argue it is the "fault" of the EU is a tad disingenuous.......

Another argument by Leave was that by not having to pay into EU will mean more money back to UK residents...BUT Moodys has been saying whatever the savings will be that will be eaten up by a far weaker public finances and less money due to the drop in the Pound.

The other argument of Leave was EU red tape is killing investment and new businesses.....BUT UK is second in OCED countries on investment and new businesses and trade...the top position is the Dutch...so evidently the so called red tape of the EU did not seem to hinder neither the UK and the Netherlands ......in the top OCED ten positions EU countries made up five......

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Old 06-25-2016   #17
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Default Free movement in the EU

Citing Outlaw09 in part:
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BUT this is what is not understood in Europe...UK is not part and parcel of “the Schengen Agreement” zone thus the so called "free movement of EU citizens" does not apply to UK...ALL the while UK citizens take advantage of Schengen to travel, work and reside in 26 different EU countries these days....does not quite sound right does it as it appears UK wants to eat the cake but refuses to provide the flour for the cake??.
The Schengen Zone enables cross-border travel without producing a passport (or other accepted ID). The UK opted out of the Schengen Agreement (along with Ireland IRRC) and requires EU nationals produce a passport upon arrival - I'd call that free movement with a condition.

The UK in theory can refuse entry, but I understand that is rarely exercised. It can also deport EU nationals on limited grounds.
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Old 06-25-2016   #18
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I would argue that immigration was a seriously used smokescreen BUT that this was a vote for and against globalization...ie the 18000 pound a year salary voted against and those of 30K voted for remaining in.....

The highest leave came from the low income areas vs areas with more income ....

Amazingly those that had a passport voted to remain and those that did not have one voted to leave...........

And naturally the youth vote went for and the over 65 went to leave....so there was a generational split as well...problematic was getting that youth vote out which failed badly and now they are complaining but have no one than themselves to blame.....

What broke the model was Scotland and N.Ireland which are basically low income but had a high view of the EU because I think they have played well the EU Rural and Low Income Development Fund and have well established and strong EU company employers in their regions..it is almost like they developed a European mindset say vs. Cornwall that gets a ton of EU funding but voted to get out.....which lacked an EU identify......

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Old 06-25-2016   #19
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Default The youth vote and those Labour voters

Outlaw09 in part:
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And naturally the youth vote went for and the over 65 went to leave....so there was a generational split as well...problematic was getting that youth vote out which failed badly and now they are complaining but have no one than themselves to blame.....
It helps to quantify the youth vote and from Twitter:
Quote:
Those who say the elderly have "robbed" young people of their future might instead rebuke the 64% of 18-24yr-olds who didn't bother voting.
How traditional Labour seats voted:
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Old 06-25-2016   #20
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Brexit & role disinformation by the British media (curved bananas etc), an analysis.
https://twitter.com/SpecGhost/status/746553046386229248
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