SMALL WARS COUNCIL
Go Back   Small Wars Council > Small Wars Participants & Stakeholders > Social Sciences, Moral, and Religious

Social Sciences, Moral, and Religious Applying the soft sciences and higher laws.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-11-2007   #21
wm
Council Member
 
wm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: On the Lunatic Fringe
Posts: 1,237
Default

Marc,
Quote:
Originally Posted by marct View Post
I was thinking more along the lines of "God says..." or "credo qua absurdam est", but the knuckle dusting refs will do as well .
The argumentum ad verecundiam or appeal to (false) authority is an example of the exercise of brute force; at least that's how I have taught it in critical reasoning classes. By the same token, in the argumentum ad batulum , that stick is a false authority, as is the insult in the argumentum ad hominem, wouldn't you agree?
wm is offline  
Old 11-11-2007   #22
marct
Council Member
 
marct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,682
Default

Hi Wayne,

Quote:
Originally Posted by wm View Post
The argumentum ad verecundiam or appeal to (false) authority is an example of the exercise of brute force; at least that's how I have taught it in critical reasoning classes. By the same token, in the argumentum ad batulum , that stick is a false authority, as is the insult in the argumentum ad hominem, wouldn't you agree?
This, of course, gets us into the nature of truth - something I try not to get into unless it's face to face with a tangential discussion of optics . Anyway, I've got to run... I'm singing Mozart's Requiem tonight.
__________________
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
marct is offline  
Old 11-11-2007   #23
SteveMetz
Council Member
 
SteveMetz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Carlisle, PA
Posts: 1,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marct View Post
Hi Wayne,



This, of course, gets us into the nature of truth - something I try not to get into unless it's face to face with a tangential discussion of optics . Anyway, I've got to run... I'm singing Mozart's Requiem tonight.
Are you wearing your Salieri costume?
SteveMetz is offline  
Old 11-11-2007   #24
marct
Council Member
 
marct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,682
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMetz View Post
Are you wearing your Salieri costume?
To quote Mozart

Quote:
__________________
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
marct is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #25
Sarajevo071
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 278
Default thanks marct,

Quote:
Originally Posted by marct View Post
Hi Sarajevo,
If you want to read some of the excluded books, most have been published in one form or another. The earliest is the Gospel of Thomas, while most of the rest are in the Nag Hamadi Library (a few may also be in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but that is highly questionable).
I did have in mind Dead Sea Scrolls but I forget they actual name (I thought they call them differently!?). They are highly controversial, right? Like Mary Magdalene's, Gnostic gospels (like someone mention them before) or even Juda's?

Last edited by Sarajevo071; 11-14-2007 at 01:23 AM.
Sarajevo071 is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #26
Sarajevo071
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 278
Default skiguy,

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
The original question was because I think there are a lot of moral similarities between the 2 religions, and those similarities can be used for peacekeeping. Just wondering if Sarajevo would agree.
And Sarajevo wonders why didn't you ask him that directly!?

To save you that hassle of talking to me (obviously you are not big fan of it) let me answer... Do I agree? Yes, I do. But how, when and under which circumstances?! That's something else.
Sarajevo071 is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #27
marct
Council Member
 
marct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,682
Default Hi Sarajevo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarajevo071 View Post
I did have in mind Dead Sea Scrolls but I forget they actual name (I thought they call them differently!?). They are highly controversial, right?
There also sometimes called the Qumran Library and, yes, quite controversial. I've read most of them and, to me at least, they don't appear to be Christian (I'm not an expert, and I've only read them in translation). If you are more interested in the Christian (influenced) books, I would go for the Nag Hamadi Library.

If you are interested in the general topic of early Christian writing, and some of it is very good, you might want to track down Origen, Clement of Alexandria and Augustine of Hippo Regis (way too prolific for my taste and I have his philosophy - still, very interesting in understanding the later development of Christianity).
__________________
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
marct is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #28
Sarajevo071
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 278
Default Hello,

THANK you marct on you responses and reading recommendations. You will keep be busy for some time.
Sarajevo071 is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #29
marct
Council Member
 
marct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,682
Cool I think he did ask you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarajevo071 View Post
Do I agree? Yes, I do. But how, when and under which circumstances?! That's something else.
I agree, it really does change things. So, when do you think it would be a good idea, and when not?
__________________
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
marct is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #30
Sarajevo071
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 278
Default

Generally speaking (we are speaking generally, right?) it will depend who is in question, where, when and why? But I would say not before killings are stooped, invasions are halted, fair reparations are made and respect and trust is gain back... Without that you will have just bunch of people screaming on each others, accusing them for this and that, defending they of guilty sides and spiting on opposites.

This is just my personal opinion from top of my head this night. For something more precise or deeper (!?) I will need to get back to you. Sorry.
Sarajevo071 is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #31
marct
Council Member
 
marct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,682
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarajevo071 View Post
Generally speaking (we are speaking generally, right?) it will depend who is in question, where, when and why? But I would say not before killings are stooped, invasions are halted, fair reparations are made and respect and trust is gain back... Without that you will have just bunch of people screaming on each others, accusing them for this and that, defending they of guilty sides and spiting on opposites.
Yup - I think we are best off using the general right now. Hmm, okay, I can see why you would say that. I was thinking that it has been used during actual conflicts (I'll try and get the refs, but a couple of places in Africa and Northern Ireland come to mind) as a way to stop the conflict.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarajevo071 View Post
This is just my personal opinion from top of my head this night. For something more precise or deeper (!?) I will need to get back to you. Sorry.
No worries - I'm pretty much done for the night myself (too much work, too little sleep), Take care,

Marc
__________________
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
marct is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #32
Sarajevo071
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marct View Post
Yup - I think we are best off using the general right now. Hmm, okay, I can see why you would say that. I was thinking that it has been used during actual conflicts (I'll try and get the refs, but a couple of places in Africa and Northern Ireland come to mind) as a way to stop the conflict.
No need to go far like Africa. Stay closer. Bosnia? Or, since you mention Northern Ireland... Didn't they need for talks to start (and results to shown) new people in charge, different mentalities and let down in fighting (attacks)? IMO, generally speaking something need to really change so people will start thinking about peace and not about revenge for they killed and wrongs they suffer. Do you believe that one can have talks/conversations about peace and mutual understanding while attacks/invasion/war is still going strong?! I am not so sure.
Sarajevo071 is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #33
skiguy
Council Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 169
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarajevo071 View Post
Do you believe that one can have talks/conversations about peace and mutual understanding while attacks/invasion/war is still going strong?! I am not so sure.
That's probably when it's the most important time to have talks.
skiguy is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #34
goesh
Council Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,188
Default Looking Again For Our Juju

It's in the eye of the beholder, comparisons and analogies, with any of the major religious texts. The real bright spot in Islamic thinking are the Sufis, many of whom will accomodate broad interpretation and application but we are ignoring some basics in this discussion. Assuming monotheistic orientation and with no taint of agnosticism/healthy skepticism, it is the ritual and manner said texts are approached, handled and read that imparts the real message. Lustration is the key, the ritual most ignore, part our missing 'juju'. Pecking the keyboard to read Al Qu'ran or the Upanishads or the Bible in no way compares to ritual application of the real thing. We in the West have blended the spiritual and the intellectual for some time now but at what cost is better addressed in other threads.
goesh is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #35
wm
Council Member
 
wm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: On the Lunatic Fringe
Posts: 1,237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marct View Post
There If you are interested in the general topic of early Christian writing, and some of it is very good, you might want to track down Origen, Clement of Alexandria and Augustine of Hippo Regis (way too prolific for my taste and I have his philosophy - still, very interesting in understanding the later development of Christianity).
In the same vein regarding early Christian writing, I heartily suggest a long look through the contents of this website. Some big names to consider besides those provided by MarcT are Irenaeaus, Justin Martyr, Polycarp of Smyrna, Tertullian, and Jerome. IMO, the later (post 3rd C AD) writers are much less interesting in their broad content and much more interesting because of the minuteness of what they dispute. You might also try a read of Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea's history of the early church.
wm is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #36
marct
Council Member
 
marct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,682
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarajevo071 View Post
No need to go far like Africa. Stay closer. Bosnia? Or, since you mention Northern Ireland... Didn't they need for talks to start (and results to shown) new people in charge, different mentalities and let down in fighting (attacks)? IMO, generally speaking something need to really change so people will start thinking about peace and not about revenge for they killed and wrongs they suffer. Do you believe that one can have talks/conversations about peace and mutual understanding while attacks/invasion/war is still going strong?! I am not so sure.
I do agree with Skiguy that that is when they have to start (if not earlier). Over the years, I've done a fair bit of research on how one group stigmatizes another - usually with little or no basis in reality. For example, 2nd century ce Roman authors accused Christian cultists of exactly the same things that later Christian groups accused other groups of - e.g. stealing children to sacrifice hem and drink their blood, casting evil spells (malleficium in Roman Law), seducing youths away from what is "right and proper" (i.e. the official religion), etc.

These types of accusations are really simple to make against almost any group but, when aimed by one religious group against another, they tend to heighten the emotional divide while, at the same time, portraying each other in line with the "demonic" of their own conceptions. BTW, this shows up much more in monotheistic religions than in others - not surprising since their are Manichean elements in all of the major monotheistic religions.

I suspect that Bosnia is, in many ways, a particular type of a special case. Bear with me for a moment, because I know that it is a very personal case for you .

Most mountainous areas tend to hold groups that "lost" in their bids to get better land. In some ways, the areas tend to contain an incredible number of different ethnic groups - think about the Caucuses, the Balkans, the Highlands of Scotland before the Highland clearances. Even when you have only a single ethnic group, it is usually because they "lost" (e.g. Ethiopia, Swaziland). This is one strand that plays out in the creation and maintenance of very strong ethnic identities.

The second strand that tends towards the creation and maintenance of strong ethnic identities is the very nature of most mountainous areas. Think about how food is produced and, also, what other economic activities are followed (e.g. mining, lumber, etc.). All of these activities require both strong teamwork and control over access to scarce resources - a situation that tends to promote strong lineage systems which, in turn, leads to the development of feud cultures with honour systems based around blood vengeance and long memories. Even in the US you can see this in the rather infamous Hatfield-McCoy feud.

This gives us a situation where the social structure and the economic base of the cultures in mountainous areas, such as the Balkans, are predisposed towards conflict and, also, to the use of any symbol system that allows for a) justifications for feuds and b) differentiation between ethnic groups.
__________________
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
marct is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #37
goesh
Council Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,188
Default The Kabbalah of Christ

we are starting to shake the Sephirothic tree here methinks
goesh is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #38
marct
Council Member
 
marct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,682
Default

Hi Goesh,

Quote:
Originally Posted by goesh View Post
Assuming monotheistic orientation and with no taint of agnosticism/healthy skepticism, it is the ritual and manner said texts are approached, handled and read that imparts the real message. Lustration is the key, the ritual most ignore, part our missing 'juju'. Pecking the keyboard to read Al Qu'ran or the Upanishads or the Bible in no way compares to ritual application of the real thing. We in the West have blended the spiritual and the intellectual for some time now but at what cost is better addressed in other threads.
Hmm, I'm not sure about another thread being the best place for it since it is a key in the comparison and understanding between religions. You have certainly raised a key point, though - the intellectual examination of a symbol system is a pale shadow of the practice of that symbol system, and there are significant differences between the academic ritual of examining a text and that of a believer examining the same text.
__________________
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
marct is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #39
marct
Council Member
 
marct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3,682
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by goesh View Post
we are starting to shake the Sephirothic tree here methinks
In which world ? Well, I spent a couple of years working with the QBL in a variety of its forms and, having done that, I can say that it is a pretty powerful collection of ritual sequences. What is fascinating to me at least is that the power of the technology is not dependent on the particularity of the symbol system used. Which leads to all sorts of things...
__________________
Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
Senior Research Fellow,
The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
Carleton University
http://marctyrrell.com/
marct is offline  
Old 11-14-2007   #40
invictus0972
Council Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ft Riley , KS
Posts: 42
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarajevo071 View Post
[I]
Last sermon of the Last Prophet have also deep meaning and good message for those who can read and wish to know:
Hi Sarajevo,

My question is less theological and more in the IO arena. In the past, I have read the quote you posted, the one about no person being superior to other persons. This is often quoted as an example of how Islam is inclusive and tolerant. However, I have always disagreed with this text as an example because is it not true that it is referring to Muslims not being superior to one another? In other words, those outside Islam, so called infidels, are not included in this message. In laymen's terms, one could paraphrase and say, "No Muslim black is superior to a Muslim arab and no Muslim arab is superior to a Muslim black." If one reads the entire text that you posted, it seems to be good to be a Muslim, but non-Muslims are not covered, at least in the text you provided.

I ask because I am looking for texts within Islam that discourage terrorism against non-Muslims. I know of the ones which discourage the killing of noncombatants; however, is there anything more powerful? Just as an example, Christian theology, as an ideal too often not realized, goes beyond not killing an enemy but demands that its adherents actually love the enemy. Is there any text like this in Islam in which the enemy (non-Muslims, infidels, people of the book, etc.) are to be so fully embraced?

If we can find these texts, perhaps we could use them to more effectively counter violent salafists' call to combat the "far enemy" in a defensive jihad, a term I know is justified in the Koran. Thanks in advance for your help!

Very respectfully,

Jerry

Last edited by invictus0972; 11-14-2007 at 06:48 PM.
invictus0972 is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9. ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Registered Users are solely responsible for their messages.
Operated by, and site design 2005-2009, Small Wars Foundation