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Old 11-14-2007   #41
skiguy
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Hi Sarajevo,

My question is less theological and more in the IO arena.
That's kind of the same reasons I'm asking these questions. (although I'm probably being a little more theological here). I'm trying to be careful and show respect for other's beliefs, not trying to find "holes" or problems in the Qur'an....just attempting to learn things here.

Sarajevo, is there anything equivalent to "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God"?
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Old 11-15-2007   #42
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I do agree with Skiguy that that is when they have to start (if not earlier). Over the years, I've done a fair bit of research on how one group stigmatizes another - usually with little or no basis in reality. For example, 2nd century ce Roman authors accused Christian cultists of exactly the same things that later Christian groups accused other groups of - e.g. stealing children to sacrifice hem and drink their blood, casting evil spells (malleficium in Roman Law), seducing youths away from what is "right and proper" (i.e. the official religion), etc.

These types of accusations are really simple to make against almost any group but, when aimed by one religious group against another, they tend to heighten the emotional divide while, at the same time, portraying each other in line with the "demonic" of their own conceptions. BTW, this shows up much more in monotheistic religions than in others - not surprising since their are Manichean elements in all of the major monotheistic religions.

I suspect that Bosnia is, in many ways, a particular type of a special case. Bear with me for a moment, because I know that it is a very personal case for you .

Most mountainous areas tend to hold groups that "lost" in their bids to get better land. In some ways, the areas tend to contain an incredible number of different ethnic groups - think about the Caucuses, the Balkans, the Highlands of Scotland before the Highland clearances. Even when you have only a single ethnic group, it is usually because they "lost" (e.g. Ethiopia, Swaziland). This is one strand that plays out in the creation and maintenance of very strong ethnic identities.

The second strand that tends towards the creation and maintenance of strong ethnic identities is the very nature of most mountainous areas. Think about how food is produced and, also, what other economic activities are followed (e.g. mining, lumber, etc.). All of these activities require both strong teamwork and control over access to scarce resources - a situation that tends to promote strong lineage systems which, in turn, leads to the development of feud cultures with honour systems based around blood vengeance and long memories. Even in the US you can see this in the rather infamous Hatfield-McCoy feud.

This gives us a situation where the social structure and the economic base of the cultures in mountainous areas, such as the Balkans, are predisposed towards conflict and, also, to the use of any symbol system that allows for a) justifications for feuds and b) differentiation between ethnic groups.
Hi, marct

All true to the point but you are forgetting that "minor" thing of misuse of religion and history in Balkans! Both strong and both so easily manipulated. Latest war was not about land and food sources per se, but it was about losing control that gave serbs power and right on continues use of name "Yugoslavia" (no matter how much they hate Yugoslavia and Tito) which will grant them same prestige that YU heaved in UN and World, and all those gold reserves (which serbs stole before Yugo wars).
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Old 11-15-2007   #43
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Hi Sarajevo,

My question is less theological and more in the IO arena. In the past, I have read the quote you posted, the one about no person being superior to other persons. This is often quoted as an example of how Islam is inclusive and tolerant. However, I have always disagreed with this text as an example because is it not true that it is referring to Muslims not being superior to one another? In other words, those outside Islam, so called infidels, are not included in this message. In laymen's terms, one could paraphrase and say, "No Muslim black is superior to a Muslim arab and no Muslim arab is superior to a Muslim black." If one reads the entire text that you posted, it seems to be good to be a Muslim, but non-Muslims are not covered, at least in the text you provided.

I ask because I am looking for texts within Islam that discourage terrorism against non-Muslims. I know of the ones which discourage the killing of noncombatants; however, is there anything more powerful? Just as an example, Christian theology, as an ideal too often not realized, goes beyond not killing an enemy but demands that its adherents actually love the enemy. Is there any text like this in Islam in which the enemy (non-Muslims, infidels, people of the book, etc.) are to be so fully embraced?

If we can find these texts, perhaps we could use them to more effectively counter violent salafists' call to combat the "far enemy" in a defensive jihad, a term I know is justified in the Koran. Thanks in advance for your help!

Very respectfully,

Jerry
Right now of top of my head I can give you great example... Actually, two.

When Spain was plaque by Christian Inquisition and jews was running for they lives, many of them find safe heaven in territory of todays Bosnia (under Ottomans). Turkish sultan gave official and open a decree that jews is NOT to be harmed, that they are to be let to settle down and live, to trade and to be treated fairly. And they was.

When Ottomans heaved great battle against Serbs (serbs lost that battle but manage to deadly wound Sultan), dieing sultan told his son NOT to take revenge for his death and to rule wisely. His son didn't listen and Ottoman's end in Balkans started with that period.

Also, when Islam was just in infancy and Mecca's rules was killling new Muslims, it was Christian king Ashama ibn Abjar of Abyssinia that give them refuge and protect them from intense persecution, after they prove them respect that Islam and Muslims are offering to the Marry and Jesus (and mentioning them in Holly Qur'an). That was not lost to Muslims and it will never be forgotten.

My humble point here is that you can find examples of non-Muslims being treated fairly and equal and that Islam teaching us of respect toward ALL "people of the book", and toward mercy towards woman, kids, elderly, clergy and people who find shelter in holly places! All those things one can find in Islam and Qur'an. There are parts that one can use and defend non-Muslims against attacks.

It's there. Now, why do some people skipping those parts and why is revenge bigger then mercy that is another question and involving other religions and people. Like I ask many here before... While attacks against Muslims by US going strong and all those torture and false imprisonments for years (backed by political and intelligence manipulations), how many Muslims will option to help and go openly against Salafiya Jihadia?! I still didn't get answer on that.

Away from public eyes that "resistance" is happening and more and more spilling into open but some big, public descend that you will like to see (while all this is happening) I don't see it.

Last edited by Sarajevo071; 11-15-2007 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 11-15-2007   #44
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That's kind of the same reasons I'm asking these questions. (although I'm probably being a little more theological here). I'm trying to be careful and show respect for other's beliefs, not trying to find "holes" or problems in the Qur'an....just attempting to learn things here.
He is open in his desires and honest. I can respect that.

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Sarajevo, is there anything equivalent to "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God"?
For that I am not sure and I need to check things before I say anything more. Just do not forget that there was different "reasons" and historical factors when Bible and Qur'an was written down (and by whom and why).
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Old 11-15-2007   #45
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I'm going to post up some of Fludds 'sketches' (no insult intended) and by God! (for lack of better word) COIN will get a limb of its own
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Old 11-15-2007   #46
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"Like I ask many here before... While attacks against Muslims by US going strong and all those torture and false imprisonments for years (backed by political and intelligence manipulations), how many Muslims will option to help and go openly against Salafiya Jihadia?! I still didn't get answer on that."
(Sarajevo)

I'm not invoking a false collective here when I say we are not "attacking Muslims" per se. That point has been reiterated in this forum many times. The considerate and intelligent discussion that has evolved on and around Islamic issues clearly demonstrates this and any racist, bigoted commentary is quickly deleted and I would imagine such people would be banned from further commentary. The Monitors and participants of SWC pretty much represent a small but solid slice of a larger collective that manages and directs our nation. Lastly, there is no common data, no readily availble facts and observations to support your contention. I refer specifically to post 9/11 when attacks against Muslims, their property and Masjids was almost non-existant. Blood-lust was running high after 9/11 but there was no civilian retribution against innocent Muslims under the protection of our Constitution and Law Enforcement agencies. That fact cannot be ingored and I contend it is not ignored by Muslims througout the world. As we are at home, we are abroad and belive me when I say, we have elements here at home that differ from Muslim terrorists in language and location only. We will assault any forces or elements that threaten our national security and who visit slaughter and mayhem upon innocents, regardless of the ideology they espouse in so doing. Our history bears this out and we will continue to act accordingly for generations to come and we will continue to die in so doing. There is no more I can say to you regarding your assertion that America is waging war against Muslims.
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Old 11-15-2007   #47
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Hi Sarajevo,

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All true to the point but you are forgetting that "minor" thing of misuse of religion and history in Balkans! Both strong and both so easily manipulated. Latest war was not about land and food sources per se, but it was about losing control that gave serbs power and right on continues use of name "Yugoslavia" (no matter how much they hate Yugoslavia and Tito) which will grant them same prestige that YU heaved in UN and World, and all those gold reserves (which serbs stole before Yugo wars).
Umm, I'm not trying to "forget" the misuses of religion in the Balkans so much as trying to contextualize them and note some of the structural reasons why religions tend to be misused in these areas. BTW, another good example, in similar terrain, is the Turkish, Armenian, Kurdish interactions.
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Old 11-15-2007   #48
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21816221/


" updated 2 hours, 7 minutes ago
KHOST, Afghanistan - Taliban militants shot dead a teenage boy in southeastern Afghanistan for teaching English to his classmates, police said on Thursday.

Taliban militants have killed a number of teachers and students in recent years for attending government-run schools, taking part in classes for girls or what the hardline Islamist militants consider un-Islamic subjects.

Armed men arrived at the school in the Sayed Karam district of Paktia province and grabbed a 16-year-old student and dragged him outside. "

There ain't a man here that wouldn't draw down on these killers and religion and culture has nothing to do with it.
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Old 11-15-2007   #49
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Christian theology, as an ideal too often not realized, goes beyond not killing an enemy but demands that its adherents actually love the enemy. Is there any text like this in Islam in which the enemy (non-Muslims, infidels, people of the book, etc.) are to be so fully embraced?

If we can find these texts, perhaps we could use them to more effectively counter violent salafists' call to combat the "far enemy" in a defensive jihad, a term I know is justified in the Koran. Thanks in advance for your help!

Very respectfully,

Jerry
So the Christian God commands his followers to love their enemy. He’s got a funny way of showing it. You wouldn’t know it from actually reading the Bible. Here is just a short list of the record of atrocities this God endorsed, commanded, or participated in.

People of Judah shout and God helps them kill 500,000 Israelites (2 Chr 13: 15-18)
God kills 70 men for simply looking into the Ark (1 Sam 6:19)
Korah questions Moses’ leadership and God makes the earth open up and swallow his people: men, women, and children (Num 16:20-49)
God drowns almost everyone on earth (Gen 7:21)
God orders and joins in on the genocide of all of Canaan (all through the book of Joshua, the killing just never stops)
God threatens people with having to eat their children’s flesh (Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9)
Sons of Levi are blessed for randomly slaughtering cow worshippers (Exo 32:27-29)
God, after hardening Pharaoh’s heart, kills all the Egyptian babies for Pharaoh’s stubbornness (Exo 11:10, Exo 12:29)
God kills the meat eaters (Num 11)
God allows people to sacrifice their babies to him to teach them a lesson (Ezek 20:26)
God kills a man for not impregnanting his sister-in-law (Gen 38:9-10)
God comes out of the sky to kill David’s enemies (2 Sam 22:9-16)
God allows babies to be dashed and pregnant women to be ripped open (Hosea 13:16)
God threatens to have wild animals carry away the Israelite’s children (Lev 26:22)
God tells people to kill their loved ones if they worship other gods (Deu 13:6-10)
Bible says beat your child with a rod (Prov 23:13)
Bible says beating and wounding people is good for them (Prov 20:30)
God promises to punish children for their parent’s sin (Exo 20:5)
God terrifies and causes tumors (1 Sam 5:6)

If one was to make an argument that a Supreme Being that has ultimate authority has the right to kill innocent children if he so desires, then I concur. But I take issue with the idea of such a Deity being “good”, “benevolent” or “loving.” Such a deity has a death fetish, He is petty, and deserving of not worship, but contempt.

For the record, I was forced to attend a Southern Baptist church every Sunday as a kid. I have recovered from the experience, thank you very much. I tend to find that generally Christians gloss over these atrocities. After all, if they question God they may get the same fate as those mentioned in the Bible. I think that a lot of Christians live in a state of denial about these Scriptures. They just pretend that the atrocities don’t exist in the “inspired, infallible, inerrant word of God.” Fact is these things DO exist in the Bible. Probably because it is the word of man, not God—in particular, the word of an ancient barbaric people who used “God” or “Yaweh” to justify their genocide and blood lust.

There is simply no other explanation, otherwise you have to reconcile a homicidal, genocidal, bloody ogre of a monster God in the Old Testament with the supposedly gentle peacenik hippy Jesus in the New Testament. Good luck reconciling the two.

This is the same problem the Muslims have. The militant, homicidal ones find their passages in the Koran to back up their divinely sanctioned violence. No matter what other good things are there--and they do exist, this backdrop of violence and murder sacnctioned by the Supreme Being just can't be avoided.
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Old 11-15-2007   #50
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Hi Tactitus,

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I think that a lot of Christians live in a state of denial about these Scriptures. They just pretend that the atrocities don’t exist in the “inspired, infallible, inerrant word of God.” Fact is these things DO exist in the Bible. Probably because it is the word of man, not God—in particular, the word of an ancient barbaric people who used “God” or “Yaweh” to justify their genocide and blood lust.
On the whole, I think you are right about the glossing over of many of these passages. There is even the "convenient" out brought around by the "New Covenant" in the NT . I should also note that it is pretty wel known, in academic circles at least, that the Hebrew tribes plagiarized at least one book (Job) from Ugarit (no citations - what would Dr. P. say !!).

At the same time, you should keep in mind that the bloodthirstyness you mention is pretty much a characteristic of a lot of Gods (and Goddesses) at that time (say ~1850-550 bce). It had a tendency to be exacerbated, to some degree, in later iterations in duotheistic and monotheistic religions.
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Old 11-15-2007   #51
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So If one was to make an argument that a Supreme Being that has ultimate authority has the right to kill innocent children if he so desires, then I concur. But I take issue with the idea of such a Deity being “good”, “benevolent” or “loving.” Such a deity has a death fetish, He is petty, and deserving of not worship, but contempt.

For the record, I was forced to attend a Southern Baptist church every Sunday as a kid. I have recovered from the experience, thank you very much. I tend to find that generally Christians gloss over these atrocities. After all, if they question God they may get the same fate as those mentioned in the Bible. I think that a lot of Christians live in a state of denial about these Scriptures. They just pretend that the atrocities don’t exist in the “inspired, infallible, inerrant word of God.” Fact is these things DO exist in the Bible. Probably because it is the word of man, not God—in particular, the word of an ancient barbaric people who used “God” or “Yaweh” to justify their genocide and blood lust.

There is simply no other explanation, otherwise you have to reconcile a homicidal, genocidal, bloody ogre of a monster God in the Old Testament with the supposedly gentle peacenik hippy Jesus in the New Testament. Good luck reconciling the two.

This is the same problem the Muslims have. The militant, homicidal ones find their passages in the Koran to back up their divinely sanctioned violence. No matter what other good things are there--and they do exist, this backdrop of violence and murder sacnctioned by the Supreme Being just can't be avoided.
I heartily recommend Heinelin's book JOB as a corrective for religious angst. It provides a much better answer than reading the melancholy Dane, IMHO
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Old 11-15-2007   #52
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- I've always found browsing the Halachic compositions stemming from their 'book' , Bishul/cooking in particular, took my mind off the sword and inspired a neurosis its own and I intend no offense to Jews, absolutely not
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Old 11-15-2007   #53
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Quote:
At the same time, you should keep in mind that the bloodthirstyness you mention is pretty much a characteristic of a lot of Gods (and Goddesses) at that time (say ~1850-550 bce). It had a tendency to be exacerbated, to some degree, in later iterations in duotheistic and monotheistic religions.
I dunno 'bout that Marc. Tacitus hails from just up the Eastex freeway from where I grew up. Like him, I grew up in a strict southern Baptist culture and I can attest that the God my Pastor invoked each sunday when praying for the high school football team was very genocidal in his views of the opposition--especially those who came from Catholic schools.

Tom
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Old 11-15-2007   #54
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If one was to make an argument that a Supreme Being that has ultimate authority has the right to kill innocent children if he so desires, then I concur. But I take issue with the idea of such a Deity being “good”, “benevolent” or “loving.” Such a deity has a death fetish, He is petty, and deserving of not worship, but contempt.
I'm going to continue the tradition of glossing over. I don't know the answer to this. The closest I get is because He's God, so there must be some reason for it that we don't understand and may never understand. It probably relates somehow to "the wages of sin is death", but, other than that,I don't pretend to know or pretend to have an explanation. I just do the best I can to obey the commands love God and love your neighbor which is what Jesus said it all boils down to and it's where we're at now...yes, Marc, I played the NT card. Now could someone let Israel know this?
This is part of my whole gripe with Christians calling Islam evil and saying their text condones genocide and suicide bombing. I just point to these verses in the Bible and ask them to explain the difference.

When I get a real answer, I'll let y'all know.
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Old 11-15-2007   #55
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Hi Tom,

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I dunno 'bout that Marc. Tacitus hails from just up the Eastex freeway from where I grew up. Like him, I grew up in a strict southern Baptist culture and I can attest that the God my Pastor invoked each sunday when praying for the high school football team was very genocidal in his views of the opposition--especially those who came from Catholic schools.
Is that like he WW II Army saying that "the Germans are our opponents, but the Navy is our Enemy!"?

Personally, I grew up in a strict Anglo-Catholic (aka "confused") culture - i.e. heavy drinking, lots of incense, the Choir runs the church, and this "God" fellow gets minimal mention. We never had any real problems with the Catholics, except for that, what was it called again?, oh, yeah - "guilt" (never got that one ).
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Old 11-15-2007   #56
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So the Christian God commands his followers to love their enemy. He’s got a funny way of showing it. You wouldn’t know it from actually reading the Bible. Here is just a short list of the record of atrocities this God endorsed, commanded, or participated in.

People of Judah shout and God helps them kill 500,000 Israelites (2 Chr 13: 15-18)
God kills 70 men for simply looking into the Ark (1 Sam 6:19)
Korah questions Moses’ leadership and God makes the earth open up and swallow his people: men, women, and children (Num 16:20-49)
God drowns almost everyone on earth (Gen 7:21)
God orders and joins in on the genocide of all of Canaan (all through the book of Joshua, the killing just never stops)
God threatens people with having to eat their children’s flesh (Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9)
Sons of Levi are blessed for randomly slaughtering cow worshippers (Exo 32:27-29)
God, after hardening Pharaoh’s heart, kills all the Egyptian babies for Pharaoh’s stubbornness (Exo 11:10, Exo 12:29)
God kills the meat eaters (Num 11)
God allows people to sacrifice their babies to him to teach them a lesson (Ezek 20:26)
God kills a man for not impregnanting his sister-in-law (Gen 38:9-10)
God comes out of the sky to kill David’s enemies (2 Sam 22:9-16)
God allows babies to be dashed and pregnant women to be ripped open (Hosea 13:16)
God threatens to have wild animals carry away the Israelite’s children (Lev 26:22)
God tells people to kill their loved ones if they worship other gods (Deu 13:6-10)
Bible says beat your child with a rod (Prov 23:13)
Bible says beating and wounding people is good for them (Prov 20:30)
God promises to punish children for their parent’s sin (Exo 20:5)
God terrifies and causes tumors (1 Sam 5:6)

If one was to make an argument that a Supreme Being that has ultimate authority has the right to kill innocent children if he so desires, then I concur. But I take issue with the idea of such a Deity being “good”, “benevolent” or “loving.” Such a deity has a death fetish, He is petty, and deserving of not worship, but contempt.

For the record, I was forced to attend a Southern Baptist church every Sunday as a kid. I have recovered from the experience, thank you very much. I tend to find that generally Christians gloss over these atrocities. After all, if they question God they may get the same fate as those mentioned in the Bible. I think that a lot of Christians live in a state of denial about these Scriptures. They just pretend that the atrocities don’t exist in the “inspired, infallible, inerrant word of God.” Fact is these things DO exist in the Bible. Probably because it is the word of man, not God—in particular, the word of an ancient barbaric people who used “God” or “Yaweh” to justify their genocide and blood lust.

There is simply no other explanation, otherwise you have to reconcile a homicidal, genocidal, bloody ogre of a monster God in the Old Testament with the supposedly gentle peacenik hippy Jesus in the New Testament. Good luck reconciling the two.

This is the same problem the Muslims have. The militant, homicidal ones find their passages in the Koran to back up their divinely sanctioned violence. No matter what other good things are there--and they do exist, this backdrop of violence and murder sacnctioned by the Supreme Being just can't be avoided.
In my post, I was referring to the ideal of Christianity. I would submit that the examples you provide in your response do not represent the ideal of Christianity. In fact, they were mostly examples from the Old Testament or pre-Christianity. I think to pick and choose certain portions of any religion is not the best way to understand its penultimate ideal. I am interested in the highest ideals of Christianity and Islam, not the evidence of how well people did or did not live out these ideals.

I respect your view on the existence or, in your case, nonexistence of a Supreme Being. However, I would submit that your tendency towards anthropomorphism may cloud your judgment. If a Supreme Being does exist, he would not be anything like a human; therefore, standards applied to it would be different than those applied to a mere mortal. Again, I am not trying to convince you of anything.

Have a good afternoon.
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Old 11-15-2007   #57
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WM: I have not read this Job book. But I know the story of Job, and I’ll tell you what I think about Job.

And Job lost all without complaining or cause -- sons, daughters, livestock, all destroyed, and yet Job sinned not. Some say that we should learn a lesson of patience and contentment under wrong and misfortune. That’s what the Preacher delivering the sermon typically concludes is the message. Wrongs will be righted in the hereafter on Judgment Day. But I think that it is not good to submit patiently to wrong, or to rest contented under misfortune. I urge that it is far manlier to resist wrong, better far to carefully investigate the causes of wrong and misfortune, with a view to their removal. Contentment under wrong is voluntary submission under oppression, and (in my opinion) is not the virtue some would have it to be.

In Job there is some poetry, some pathos, and some philosophy, but the story of this drama called Job, is heartless to the last degree. The children of Job are killed to settle a little private wager between God and the Devil. Sort of like a Greek myth, humans are playthings of the Gods, subject to their whims and diversions. Afterward, Job having remained firm, other children are given in the place of the murdered ones. Nothing, however, is done for the children who were murdered. So we are just pawns, bystanders in a cosmic struggle between good and evil then?

Glad you mentioned the melancholy Dane. One of my favorite passages from Kierkegaard is:
One sticks one’s finger into the soil to tell by the smell in what land one is: I stick my finger in existence — it smells of nothing. Where am I? Who am I? How came I here? What is this thing called the world? What does this world mean? Who is it that has lured me into the world? Why was I not consulted, why not made acquainted with its manners and customs instead of throwing me into the ranks, as if I had been bought by a kidnapper, a dealer in souls? How did I obtain an interest in this big enterprise they call reality? Why should I have an interest in it? Is it not a voluntary concern? And if I am to be compelled to take part in it, where is the director? I should like to make a remark to him. Is there no director? Whither shall I turn with my complaint?
 Repetition (1843), Voice: Young Man

Skiguy: I look forward to your answer. I’m Episcopalian now. What can I say, I’m a sucker for the liturgy inside the old stone small Gothic church. It somehow fosters a contemplative mood in me; maybe it is the medieval mood. I have the parish Priest over for dinner once a month. We discuss these weighty theological and philosophical matters long into the evening. So far, these questions have not been resolved.

Like you, it gets my hackles up when I hear Christians lamenting all the violence in Islam. Have they ever read Joshua? Methinks not. If that is an accurate portrayal of the will and actions of God, then He is a God to be feared and dreaded, not loved. Sort of like a kidnapper pointing a gun at your head telling you that if you don't tell him you love him, then he'll kill you. Sure, you'll tell him you love him (anything to get him to put the gun away), but you won't really mean it down deep inside. And you will be awfully uneasy about His presence.
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Last edited by Tacitus; 11-15-2007 at 06:59 PM. Reason: can't type
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Old 11-15-2007   #58
skiguy
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Tacitus, I think you have the book of Job all wrong. Job was not sinless, he was blameless (because he feared God and shunned evil). It was not a "wager" between God and Satan. Satan challenged and accused God, and God wanted to show Satan that Job can be tested and go through all this suffering yet still love God.
I think Joshua is an interesting book. There's CIA-like stuff in there with the spies, and some instances where the Israelites psyched out the enemy.

Request: let's not trash others' religions or beliefs. I like to compare religions to find the common ground in the call for peace, tolerance, and reconciliation. We all know there's violent verses in most, if not all, religious text (at least in the Abrahamic religions), but what are the good things common to all of them? If Christians, Jews, and Muslims think their commandments are to be warriors and kill or enslave everyone who doesn't follow their religion, that's just plain wrong, IMO.

I'm a Christian. I believe what I believe, and admit I'm very narrow minded about it. You're a Muslim. You believe what you believe and are narrow minded as well. Neither of us is going to change each other's beliefs. Does that mean we have to hate each other? Is there any reason we can't accept each other?
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Old 11-15-2007   #59
Stan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
I'm a Christian. I believe what I believe, and admit I'm very narrow minded about it. You're a Muslim. You believe what you believe and are narrow minded as well. Neither of us is going to change each other's beliefs. Does that mean we have to hate each other? Is there any reason we can't accept each other?
That has got to be the best version I've seen (read) to date, bar none.

Very Well Put !

I'm one of those Catholics BTW
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Old 11-15-2007   #60
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Hi Skiguy,

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
Request: let's not trash others' religions or beliefs. I like to compare religions to find the common ground in the call for peace, tolerance, and reconciliation. We all know there's violent verses in most, if not all, religious text (at least in the Abrahamic religions), but what are the good things common to all of them? If Christians, Jews, and Muslims think their commandments are to be warriors and kill or enslave everyone who doesn't follow their religion, that's just plain wrong, IMO.
I really don't think looking at the "dark side" of various religions is necessarily a case of trashing them although, I will admit, it can appear that way . I think it is important to look at both the good and the bad in them - if for no other reason that to establish the commonalities and differences between them.
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