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Old 07-24-2008   #41
jkm_101_fso
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Originally Posted by Tom Odom View Post
Finally I would also suggest you avoid the use of "whining" when dismissing other's opinions.
You are absolutely correct, Sir. I was wrong.

Much like the "it's ok for an Officer to call their NCOs by their first name" debate (GEN KILL thread), I'll concede the argument to the older and much wiser, which you are, Sir. However, I think you need young, mouthy kids like me around, if for anything else, entertainment purposes.
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Old 07-24-2008   #42
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Default Hmmm.....

I was going to stay out of this one, but...

Air Assault, Tom has a very good point regarding characterizing others opinions as whining -- I can't recall ever characterizing a comment by Tom or Ken as "whining", not to mention it really diminishes your point.

As for young LT Campbell, I took the position that I blame the sin more than the sinner -- I had great issue with the policy (DA) and those who promoted the policy than I did with 21 yr old who choose to chase a childhood dream he once thought beyond his reach.

While his comments showed a lack of maturity, I have always wondered why USMA failed to see that their "product" came out emotionally/socially stunted. LT Campbell's comments merely supported that perspective.

Perhaps the difference in how you and others define the "big picture" is likewise a matter of perspective.

I can tell you this, and i think it is most telling-- My wife (I married far better than she did) was watching TV with me when we first became aware of the policy and LT Campbell. Her reaction (a 20 year Army wife veteran) was visceral. She was offended and couldn't understand why an exception was being made in this and other cases.

In a world of shades of gray -- she is quite the moral compass. They got this one right in the end.

Live well and row
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Old 07-24-2008   #43
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Thumbs up Funny. Mine, similar background, had the same reaction...

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...I can tell you this, and i think it is most telling-- My wife (I married far better than she did) was watching TV with me when we first became aware of the policy and LT Campbell. Her reaction (a 20 year Army wife veteran) was visceral. She was offended and couldn't understand why an exception was being made in this and other cases.
Since I rarely watch TV, mine was aware of it first and told me, spluttering and frothing at the time. The phrase 'mad as a wet hen' came to mind -- not that I dared say it...

Perhaps of greater interest was the reaction of our kid, the 11B 1SG who put bad words together in quite interesting combinations about the poor example set for the Troops.
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In a world of shades of gray -- she is quite the moral compass. They got this one right in the end.
Mine, too and I think you're right, they did.
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Old 07-24-2008   #44
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Default looks like he's not headed to IZ anytime soon...

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Despite his disappointment, Campbell said he is "really excited" for his next assignment a year as a graduate assistant football coach for the Army, either at the U.S. Military Academy or the service academy's preparatory school.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8...PHCP&GT1=39002
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Old 07-24-2008   #45
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Default "Duty, Honor, Football"

was trumped by "Duty, Honor, Country" I'm pleasantly surprised to say the least.
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Old 07-24-2008   #46
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Sometimes the level of martyrdom on this forum is amazing. Not just with this thread, but others as well. Remember this one? http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=5611
I see no difference between my position in this thread and my position with field grade officers. I have problems with officers getting special treatment when Soldiers are not afforded the same benefits. I say that as a senior Captain who has seen it happen too often.
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Old 07-25-2008   #47
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Default To quote jkm_101_fso,

this:
Quote:
"...looks like he's not headed to IZ anytime soon..."
strikes me as a typical Army reaction to being caught wrong. Grudgingly comply but do so with bad grace and while thumbing the collective nose at Congress, DoD or whomever. In this case by not just putting his name in the hopper but in assigning him as a Graduate Assistant Coach. Puh-lease....

Talk about an example of
Quote:
"IMO, ... immature and is a result of jealousy and anger, not actual reasoning...not to mention a failure to see the big picture beyond one's self..."
Way to go DA -- Shades of Apaches into Bosnia or the great M4 debacle. "You can't tell me what to do..."

With a caveat that in this case someone may just be trying to assuage a bitter pill as the Army offered to let him go in good faith and got overruled, ergo they'll try to make up for that to an extent. If that's the case, I'd say laudable bur not too smart. All things considered, it's a policy that should logically on a popular consumption basis have been suspended for the duration and this is not a great response by the Army to the DoD edict IMO. YMMV.
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Old 07-25-2008   #48
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Default stop loss

Would the Army compassionately reassign Joe if he was expecting to ETS and play pro football, but one day from release, he was stop lossed? Would they give him a cushy coaching job? The stop lossed Soldiers I know, were sent to Iraq for a year (and though they were not NFL caliber, they were awesome people).

I joined ROTC my sophomore year, and took the oath right before i left for ROTC basic camp that summer. When I passed the camp, I was told that I could still quit, but if I showed up to ROTC, I was obligated from that point on, and to get out of it, would take a pretty damn good reason, and repayment of my scholarship. That was 2001-2002. LT Campbell entered USMA after 2001, knowing we were at war. He took the oath, and if he knew he would be happier playing football, he should have transferred. The reaction of every officer I've talked to about this topic was disgust, and no pity. I can understand he is disappointed in not going to the NFL, but there are worse fates in life. He is not dead, wounded, or scarred. He's not even going overseas anytime soon. He should be going to Fort Bliss or Fort Sill for ADA Basic Course, but will he even do that if he is coaching?

Bad policy on the Army, but bad on him for taking the free ride, then using a loophole to try and sit out the war, and maybe ride the pine.

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With a caveat that in this case someone may just be trying to assuage a bitter pill as the Army offered to let him go in good faith and got overruled, ergo they'll try to make up for that to an extent. If that's the case, I'd say laudable bur not too smart. All things considered, it's a policy that should logically on a popular consumption basis have been suspended for the duration and this is not a great response by the Army to the DoD edict IMO. YMMV.
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Old 07-25-2008   #49
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Default thanks for the good example, patmc

I also had this same discussion at work, among a group of a dozen officers and NCOs; including 3 USMA grads (one of whom played basketball at West Point). The general consensus was: "Hey good for this guy, I hope he excels for the Lions and makes the All-Rookie team, great PR for the Army, etc." Seriously only one guy in the discussion disagreed; and it was the same SFC that bitches about everything.

Maybe I'm jaded by my passion for football and competetive sports. I desperately want West Point to field a great team, just like Navy has done recently. And if it means one or two guys like Campbell get out of active their service obligation every year, then so be it. I think he's much more of a value to the Army and West Point playing special teams for the Lions then by being an XO of a Patriot Missile Battery; Any LT can do that. Campbell has special talent; it must be utilized to the benefit of USMA and the Army. I was really rooting for the guy to make the team. But I guess it doesn't matter now since DoD stepped in and squashed the Army on this one. Too bad. It really is a shame.
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Old 07-25-2008   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkm_101_fso View Post
You are absolutely correct, Sir. I was wrong.

Much like the "it's ok for an Officer to call their NCOs by their first name" debate (GEN KILL thread), I'll concede the argument to the older and much wiser, which you are, Sir. However, I think you need young, mouthy kids like me around, if for anything else, entertainment purposes.
And so are you correct in that we need you. Different views stimulate discussion.

I would have to agree with Ken on the final resolution of this one: the DoD got it right and the Army got it dead wrong.

Keep questioning.

Tom
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Old 07-25-2008   #51
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He should be going to Fort Bliss or Fort Sill for ADA Basic Course, but will he even do that if he is coaching?
If he doesn't graduate BOLC III, he will never see 1LT. He's going to have to go to either Sill or Benning first for BOLC II. Knowing that BOLC II is backlogged until around January, I would imagine he won't go until the season is over (for West Point that should be right after the Army-Navy game).
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Old 07-25-2008   #52
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Regarding the belief that Campbell would be a good PR move for the Army if he played in the NFL, I think that is bizarro thinking. The bedrock of being a Soldier is adherence to the Army Values. Duty and Selfless Service really jump out in this case. They are about fulfilling obligations and putting the welfare of the country and the Army before your own. If Campbell's move to the NFL had any PR effect (and we can now only speculate, since it is not happening), it would have been negative. It would have only appealed to individuals who have no desire to be Soldiers, but rather individuals desiring to use the Army as a catapult for their non-service aspirations.

I also sympathize with the view that Campbell is immature and probably not ready for the attention that his situation received. The Army is more to blame for this than a newly minted 2LT. Young leaders look for professional guidance to their superiors and the institution. The Army provided a unique, but legitimate avenue for this guy to pursue an NFL career, making it very easy for the 2LT to rationalize the decision and even embrace it as a legitimate career move. The Army failed Campbell by leading him to believe that this was acceptable.

Had it been clear to Campbell that he was going to serve 5 years active duty as a US Army Officer, no exceptions considered, then I think that he would have accepted this. Just imagine if he had that mindset as he neared the end of his education at West Point, then served 5 honorable years in whatever capacity with no expectation of special treatment, then made a decision of whether to separate or stay in, opting to pursue an NFL career. Now THAT would be good PR for the Army. Instead, we now have a young 2LT who made headlines because he was going to get special treatment due to a poorly thought out policy and misguided expectations, got his hopes up, then had his hopes dashed following a policy change foisted upon the Army, and grudgingly followed according to the letter of the policy, while defying the spirit of it. This creates the impression that the Army is willing to give unequal treatment, renege on its obligations, and defy the values that it is expected to embrace, and when corrected by DoD, it will behave like a small child who, when told to go to his room, does so, but stamps his feet all the way there, slams the door, and shouts, "I hate living here!"

This incident should be a case study in the schoolhouses.
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Old 07-25-2008   #53
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Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
I also sympathize with the view that Campbell is immature and probably not ready for the attention that his situation received. The Army is more to blame for this than a newly minted 2LT. Young leaders look for professional guidance to their superiors and the institution. The Army provided a unique, but legitimate avenue for this guy to pursue an NFL career, making it very easy for the 2LT to rationalize the decision and even embrace it as a legitimate career move. The Army failed Campbell by leading him to believe that this was acceptable.
Thank you.
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Old 07-25-2008   #54
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Default Army Captain Thinks Campbell Should Play

Former Army pro baseball player upset with decision on Campbell

Capt. Schulyer Williamson, only the second Army graduate to be selected in Major League Baseball's first-year player draft when he was chosen by the Detroit Tigers in 2005, is disappointed that he won't be able to see recent West Point graduate Caleb Campbell realize his dream of playing for the NFL's Detroit Lions this season. "It's a shame," Williamson, who participated in the Army's Alternative Service Program for one year before retiring from baseball to pursue his Army career, said. He has since served in Iraq. "In my eyes, Caleb can do more to help the Army by playing in the NFL than I did in my 15 months in Iraq." Campbell told the Associated Press he will be a graduate assistant football coach either at West Point or the service academy's preparatory school. After a year, he said, he will report to officer training.

-- Jill Lieber Steeg, USA Today

I have no opinion on Campbell's venture. I think Schmedlep got it right above with the maturity thing. "If" Campbell maintains a good attitude, is surrounding with charasmatic O's and wise NCOs, then he will be fine.

However, I thought Williamson's comment was interesting.

Last edited by Jedburgh; 07-25-2008 at 03:04 PM. Reason: Fixed link.
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Old 07-25-2008   #55
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Default Far better quote:

Quote:
"Instead, we now have a young 2LT who made headlines because he was going to get special treatment due to a poorly thought out policy and misguided expectations, got his hopes up, then had his hopes dashed following a policy change foisted upon the Army, and grudgingly followed according to the letter of the policy, while defying the spirit of it. This creates the impression that the Army is willing to give unequal treatment, renege on its obligations, and defy the values that it is expected to embrace, and when corrected by DoD, it will behave like a small child who, when told to go to his room, does so, but stamps his feet all the way there, slams the door, and shouts, "I hate living here!""
Well said, Schmedlap.
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Old 07-25-2008   #56
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Yeah, I agree, well said, Schmedlap.
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Old 07-25-2008   #57
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Default Must be ESP

among females linked to males on this site. Asked my spouse of too many decades about the Campbell flap. She said she read the article in the sports pages. So, what do you think ? "He shouldn't have enlisted."

Asked about the other guy's comment about other ways to serve country other than bullets passing by. "He shouldn't have enlisted either."

Not a new attitude for her; but perhaps enhanced by the fact that one of her friends (in a Guard unit) just got back from her second OIF tour. No special treatment for meat-cutters.
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Old 07-25-2008   #58
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Default Word

I think Jmm99 and the wives just ended this thread.

I'd submit that we step once again into the breach of Iraq, Afghanistan, and thereafter.

In the end, in this volunteer Army, the soldiers' actions will bear the truth of our nation's ascent or decline. Emphasis on volunteer. In this age of the volunteer, the notion of citizen is diminished.

20% percent of my boys had an advanced degree. 40% of my boys took a significant pay cut to enlist (I'd call my privates the post-9/11 boys). The expoloits of Campbell and others are irrevelent in the Long War.

Rereading my own post, I'm turning on my Ipod and placing a yellow flaq on my car.

Maybe I need to reevaluate and volunteer for a MTT.

Facta Non Verba

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Old 07-25-2008   #59
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Default But! But....

Angels. Angels on the head of a pin. How many? There are more important things to be sure but...

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Old 07-25-2008   #60
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Default Respectfully disagree casually if not in full...

Ken,

My entire retort/prose/response was based off the tenant of volunteer...Inuitive to the regard that if would (our angels) suffice our current need in forces.

As we (actually both) agree, if we are wrong, then there must be some other sacrifice of the 330 million of the USA.

-Just a young boy spilling words...

Mike
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