Results 1 to 20 of 520

Thread: EUCOM Economic Analysis - Part I

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    3,189

    Default

    They should have immunised the banks with new bankruptcy legislation that means the governments step in AFTER the stupid shareholders lost their value (which means the governments would gain property for the taxpayer money, not just throw it away), not by setting up a system in which they prevent the punishment of economic stupidity.
    They're harming the markets in the long term this way.

  2. #2
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,297

    Default

    @Surferbeetle:Greece reminds me a bit about the following canzone di Faber. The male fatto in un ora was done over many years but to some extent I fear the lyrics mirror the feelings of many Greeks...

    Anyway your point about the inflation is a rather interesting one. So far the massive injection of liquidity has not quite the impact on inflation, clearly due to lack of demand having caused the famous liquidity trap. How long and how strongly it will remained trapped is a key question...

    Unternehmensanleihen - Das Beste ist vorbei raises a very important aspect. While bond yields of great companies hit massive heights during the big downturn and financial crisis pushing me to acquire some, but sadly due to the lack of trust into my intellectual judgment, too few, the are now at an almost historic low.

    I shifted in the last quarter increasingly from bonds into stocks after considerable thought, aided by Graham. The yield of those German enterprises is around 2%, while the dividends of them should be a tad over 4%. At least the Euro Stoxx 50 pay out roughly 50% of their earnings out to the shareholder so they should earn roughly between 8-9% on the invested capital. Of course it is difficult to know the true owner's earning or the respective ROIC, the return on the owners invested capital.

    The Graham/Dodd or Shiller P/E (present price/earnings of the last 7 or 10 years) were also with 11 or 12 at that time IIRC quite attractive. The liquidity is massive but not so much in stocks and despite the troubles in the economy and the markets I thought the margin of safety offered by me with the prices of Mr. Market was quite good.

    To sum it up why should I now invest into bonds when I can get at low prices shares of mostly great enterprises earning me roughly 5% more on my capital? It is a businesslike investment which resulted to the recent ralley in considerable speculation gains on paper. We will see how things go on, but as long as enterprises to so well I don't know why I should sell them anytime soon.

    P.S: It is interesting that Ben Graham uses very similar words to Ludwig Beck when talking about the importance of trusting a personal judgement and acting on it after a careful and intelligent use of the grey cells. No wonder that I try to limit my ambitions
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

  3. #3
    Council Member Surferbeetle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,111

    Default

    Firn,

    Appreciate your latest well thought out (and thought provoking) post, i will get back to it later this weekend when there is more time and i can focus the sole braincell that i have left. Until then here are a few placeholders that i will try and cover at that time:

    • A Japan Scenario for the rest of the western world


    • Target2 Imbalances


    • Foreign Direct Imports


    • Sector Analysis


    • Can stocks be thought about as the present value of expected cash flows?


    • Screening Criteria/Growth at a Reasonable Price/Growth/Value/Technical Metrics


    • P/E ratio's...how are earnings calculated?


    • Currency Exchange Rates/ADR tracking gaps
    Sapere Aude

  4. #4
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,297

    Default

    Interestingly when I reread "The intelligent investor" Graham makes in Chapter 20 the same case, which I must have internalized, about 1972 bond and stock market.
    Assume in a typical case that the earning power is 9% on the price and that the bond rate is 4%.; Then the stockbuyer will have an average annual margin of 5% accruing in his favor. Some of the exess is paid to him in the dividend rate; even though spent by him it enters into his overall investment result. The undistributed balance is reinvested into the business for his account [Ideally increasing the future earnings, intelligent buy-back of stocks].
    Earning power or earning yield are very roughly the inverse of the price/earning ratio. Of course it just a facet and the book earnings don't tell the whole story and Graham used additional means to screen stocks and analyse enterprises.

    I forgot to mention just high the price of some older bonds is right now to get to as such low overall yield. It is indeed a liquidity flight into the perceived safety of good enterprise bonds. A good deal of that big Bertha liquidity was also key to bring down the spreads on PIS gov. bonds.

    Worldwide the corporate bonds seem to close in on the historic low:

    The potential for issuance to continue surging is strong as companies seek to refinance debt at extremely low cost.

    The Barclays index only needs a slight nudge to hit a record-low yield. The index finished Monday at 3.37% -- a six-month low and just one basis point away from the all-time low set on Aug. 4, 2011. The index dates back to 1973.
    Basically it should get even better for shareholder, as the companies into which they are invested have to pay considerably less interest. How could I forget to add that point in the first place.
    Last edited by Firn; 03-05-2012 at 08:38 PM.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

  5. #5
    Council Member Surferbeetle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,111

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firn View Post
    I shifted in the last quarter increasingly from bonds into stocks after considerable thought, aided by Graham. The yield of those German enterprises is around 2%, while the dividends of them should be a tad over 4%. At least the Euro Stoxx 50 pay out roughly 50% of their earnings out to the shareholder so they should earn roughly between 8-9% on the invested capital. Of course it is difficult to know the true owner's earning or the respective ROIC, the return on the owners invested capital.
    Firn,

    Keeping mind that i am only a small beer retail guy (I track and work in a small 'universe' of stocks with small amounts of money that is 'disposable'), went from investing (~3-5 year horizon) to tactical trading (~2% profit/loss on principle risked) in January with a small portfolio. Booked a years worth of profits in Feb.

    Today's a bloodbath in the Euro financial sector's exposed to Greece, FDI into the Euro industrials (and the 'promised' delivery of future dividends) is not happy, and the euro is down.

    Massive amounts of risk and uncertainty out there as we close in on the 8th of March (Athens threat to bond holdouts, By Richard Milne and David Oakley, Last updated: March 6, 2012 5:40 pm, Financial Times, www.ft.com)

    Sell when the angels sing, buy when the blood runs in the streets?
    Sapere Aude

  6. #6
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,297

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Surferbeetle View Post
    Firn,
    Sell when the angels sing, buy when the blood runs in the streets?
    This month there won't be any personal buying or selling until the trend gets more bloody. In the latter case it might be worthwhile. Of course nobody knows the future as it has that nasty habit of being unpredictable, that is why one should prepare for it. I have already a list of bonds up I would shift in that case, depending of course on their price.

    The economic situation is as it is and the stock market won't have a big impact on that in the short term. All we can do is to make the best of it and look now on then if there are any new threats or chances for the dear money.

    In the end I'm completely confident that in the long term the investment will pay off. Fear has already been my dear friend in the past as well as the angels singing, considering that despite my often glaring omissions my portfolio advanced in the last 7 years a bit over 50% while the Euro Stoxx 50 lost IIRC over 10%.

    On a big sidenote I really hope that Europe will grow again, it is just painful to see so many young people out of work in many regions. So much productive power, so much hope lost there. Puts things into perspective.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

  7. #7
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,297

    Default

    More on the flight into safety by some desperate liquidity.

    Bund zahlt Anlegern so niedrige Zinsen wie noch nie

    Der deutsche Staat kommt so billig zu Geld wie noch nie. Bei der Emission von Staatsanleihen mit fnfjhriger Laufzeit fiel der durchschnittliche Zins auf 0,79 Prozent, teilte die mit dem Schuldenmanagement des Bundes beauftragte Finanzagentur am Mittwoch mit. Noch nie fiel die Rendite bei einer Versteigerung in dieser Anleihenklasse so niedrig aus. Das alte Rekordtief lag bei 0,9 Prozent und wurde im Januar erreicht.

    Trotz der niedrigen Rendite hatte der Bund keine Probleme, Geldgeber zu finden. Die Aufstockung der Bundesobligationen splte gut 3,3 Milliarden Euro in die Staatskasse, sie war 1,8-fach berzeichnet. Das war unter dem Strich eine sehr gute Auktion, sagte Analyst Michael Leister von der DZ Bank.
    0,79% yield for 5 year bundesanleihen, we are really witnessing financial history.

    Pil in calo. E la cassa integrazione vola


    L'economia frena, la cassa integrazione decolla. Il Pil nell'Eurozona calato dello 0,3% nel quarto trimestre 2011, cos come quello della intera Ue a 27. In Italia il calo si conferma pi sensibile della media Ue: -0,7% nell'ultimo trimestre dello scorso anno. il dato della seconda stima resa nota da Eurostat che conferma i dati preliminari pubblicati lo scorso 15 febbraio. Nel confronto su base annuale, ovvero rispetto al quarto trimestre del 2010, il prodotto interno lordo della Ue-17 risultato aumentato dello 0,7%, quello dell'Italia invece calato dello 0,5%.
    Unsurprisingly bad news from the Italian economy, the last decade was a terrible one in part thanks to a bald man. We have really suffered quite a bit more then many other EU member states. Let us hope that we finally will have true reforms able to tap into the many, mostly human ressources of this country.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

  8. #8
    Council Member Surferbeetle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,111

    Default

    Firn,

    Thought this might be of interest as we consider the importance of growth (aka nation building in some circles); I do not see the issues as being limited to America.

    Special Report: Restoring US Competitiveness, Harvard Business Review, March 2012

    Why U.S. Competitiveness Matters to All of Us
    by Nitin Nohria

    The Looming Challenge to U.S. Competitiveness
    by Michael E. Porter and Jan W. Rivkin

    WORKFORCE
    A Jobs Compact for America's Future
    by Thomas A. Kochan

    A Warning Sign from Global Companies
    by Matthew J. Slaughter and Laura D'Andrea Tyson

    Rethinking School
    by Stacey Childress

    STRATEGY
    Choosing the United States
    by Michael E. Porter and Jan W. Rivkin

    Does America Really Need Manufacturing?
    by Gary P. Pisano and Willy C. Shih

    How to Make Finance Work
    by Robin Greenwood and David S. Scharfstein

    POLICY
    Macroeconomic Policy and U.S. Competitiveness
    by Richard H.K. Vietor and Matthew Weinzierl

    Reviving Entrepreneurship
    by Josh Lerner and William Sahlman

    Green Rules to Drive Innovation
    by Daniel C. Esty and Steve Charnovitz

    CONTEXT
    The Incentive Bubble
    by Mihir Desai

    Fixing What's Wrong with U.S. Politics
    by David A. Moss

    Enriching the Ecosystem
    by Rosabeth Moss Kanter
    ...and here is a quick internet drive-by on some of the topics I am thinking about with respect to my equity selection and trading:


    • A Japan Scenario for the rest of the western world

    After half a century of trade surpluses, Japan is now in deficit, Jan 14th 2012 | from the print edition, The Economist, http://www.economist.com/node/21542794

    Deficit in current account biggest ever, Friday, March 9, 2012, Japan Times, http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nb20120309a1.html

    • Target2 Imbalances

    What is the meaning of TARGET balances?, By Silvia Merler on 29th February 2012, Bruegel, http://www.bruegel.org/blog/detail/a...rget-balances/

    Debate on Target 2, Bruegel, http://www.bruegel.org/debate-on-target-2

    • Foreign Direct Investment

    Inward Foreign Direct Investment from the rest of the world, Eurostat

    http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/por..._code=TGIBC410


    • Sector Analysis

    By Yahoo Finance

    Industry Browser - Industrial Goods Sector - Industry List, http://biz.yahoo.com/p/6conameu.html

    Industry Browser - Financial Sector - Industry List, http://biz.yahoo.com/p/4conameu.html


    • Can stocks be thought about as the present value of expected cash flows?


    • Screening Criteria/Growth at a Reasonable Price/Growth/Value/Technical Metrics


    • P/E ratio's...how are earnings calculated?


    • Currency Exchange Rates


    • ADR tracking gaps

    ADR Arbitrage Opportunities for Dummies, BEATRIZ AMARY OTAVIO OTTONI, http://people.hbs.edu/mdesai/IFM05/AmaryOttoni.pdf
    Sapere Aude

  9. #9
    Council Member Surferbeetle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,111

    Default

    Cam Penner, Rye Whiskey from the album What's Kickin

    Homeric Similes And Spanish Debt, Posted on March 6, 2012 by Edward Hugh at a Fistful of Euros

    “Nothing” remember, “is more hateful to wisdom (astucia) than true cleverness”, which means if you try to go rummaging round round Spain for Goldman-Sachs-style interest-rate-swaps you will almost certainly leave empty handed. Handiwork here is all much simpler, and more artesanal than that, and therein lies the beauty and the sophistocation of the thing.

    Hence, if you are someone who is really interested in trying to answer the question about just how high the present level of Spanish sovereign debt actually is (officially it was to have been 67.8% of GDP in December, but that estimate was made before the latest set of budget deficit “revelations” and when the estimate of 2011 GDP was rather higher than it turned out to be, so it is probably nearer to 70% now, even on the official Eurostat EDP measure) you should start here, with the Financial Accounts of the Spanish Economy. The part you really need is Chapter Two the “Financial Accounts” – actually, I will add in a small but revealing personal anecdote here, since when I sent all these links off to the IMF Spanish Mission Head back in the spring of 2010 he mailed me back saying “thanks a lot” – he plainly didn’t know that this sort of thing existed., although the Spanish head of Global Financial issues for the IMF - ex Bank of Spain man JosĂ© Viñals – most surely did, but he simply hadn’t seen fit to brief his colleague. As I say, this is how Spain works, you have to ask the right person the exactly right question, and make sure you don’t get sidetracked. Otherwise you will learn nothing apart from a lot of useless and most likely thoroughly misleading information.
    Sapere Aude

  10. #10
    Council Member Surferbeetle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,111

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    They should have immunised the banks with new bankruptcy legislation that means the governments step in AFTER the stupid shareholders lost their value (which means the governments would gain property for the taxpayer money, not just throw it away), not by setting up a system in which they prevent the punishment of economic stupidity.
    They're harming the markets in the long term this way.
    Fuchs,

    Hope to get to this and try and formulate/provide a semi-coherent response with respect to the gap between theory and reality and cost/benefit considerations:

    • The idealism of Ayn Rand


    • The reality of depending upon your team in order to provide 360 24/7 security services (work breakdown structure - task, skill set, cost, schedule, etc.)


    • Recognizing, understanding, and utilizing the tools of nation building through the prisms of the private sector and the public sector




    • Motorcycles = power/weight = ~170hp/410lbs = Ducati


    • Economy = destruction/political representation = ~2 trillion Euros/X number of political representatives = Greece?


    • Economy = construction/political representation = ~ 2.4 trillion Euros-year/X number of politicians = Germany?


    In the meantime, the February 25th-March 2nd edition of The Economist (hardcopy or digital if you have a subscription or here if you don't) has a 14 page special report on Financial Innovation which will either keep you awake a bit longer or put you right to sleep...
    Sapere Aude

Similar Threads

  1. Crimes, War Crimes and the War on Terror
    By davidbfpo in forum Law Enforcement
    Replies: 600
    Last Post: 03-03-2014, 04:30 PM
  2. Class Analysis and COIN
    By AmericanPride in forum RFIs & Members' Projects
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 02-26-2009, 02:51 AM
  3. Overhauling Intelligence
    By SWJED in forum Intelligence
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-05-2008, 06:26 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •