Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

[OUTLAW 09]

I find it interesting that you claim to know the war plan better than the planners, but I doubt the veracity of that statement. More importantly, a plan is just a plan; it is axiomatic that no plan survives first contact. In fact, nearly every op plan I have seen executed was frago'ed before it was converted from a plan to an opord. At the lowest tactical level that may not be the case so much, but then units at , say, battalion and below do not normally write op plans, at least not in my experience. YMMV

wm---you still have not mentioned where you where during the very last 1989 Reforger exercise ---were you at least in an European based Army unit that participated---a yes or no will do and yes I do know the plans very well from 1989 as I was tasked to fulfill them both operationally as well as tactically and yourself? And then differently from you I had to exercise the Soviet doctrine against the opord.

See when you mentioned every plan you have seen was frago'ed then you are way past the 1989 timeframe in active service and in those years all plans were submitted as opords in 1989 as they Army then adhered strictly to MDMP not as they do now and simply frago everything that walks and talks and acts like a plan---AFG in some units was up into the 300/400 series ranged frago numbers---come on wm--served there as well.

Quit sidestepping that every plan does not survive first contact---the wartime contingency planning for Europe was drilled at every Reforger exercise (in addition to surprises thrown in to mimic opord adaptions on the fly) if you had participated in them which you have not so I am not sure why you assume you are in fact correct and you challenge other's veracity who actually participated in them.

Come on wm you really do not believe units such as the 2/3ACR or 11ACR could have "won" against the Soviet Ground Forces Germany Tank Divisons who had already the T80s in 1985/86 in large numbers---even the Abrams in Europe initially had the 105mm gun not the 120mm which came into theater later in larger numbers. The ACRs only had the Bradley's and a bunch of 113s come on.

If you have participated in the last Reforger from 1989 then we can talk and exchange experiences on long the 141 rides over the Atlantic we both had just to get to Germany.

Again when you speak of SDAMs and the other related weapons--speak from experience as I have been trained on the darn thing and deployed with it out a C130 all based on an USEOM opord not a frago have you? Then we can converse and exchange experiences.

Until then continue thinking USECOM was "winning" as this conversation is going nowhere.

WM---by the way just to refresh your knowledge of Soviet Army units based in just the GDR as of 1989 not counting their back up units in Poland---in 1989 we had only a max of 270K and it was a lot of combat support mixed in. A majority of these units were deactivated after 1994 when they pulled out of the then GDR after reunification.

By the way count the number of actual Soviet Divisions (yes they are smaller than ours) inside the GDR and then tell me just how many Divisions we had along with NATO on the ground physically located inside Germany and you wonder why we worried every time there was a troop rotation on their side as the size actually doubled as units came in and units went out and often overlapped for several weeks increasing the actual number of Soviet troops on the ground by a factor of 2.


Soviet 1st Guards Tank Army (HQ Dresden) · 8th Guards Mechanised Corps, the 11th Guards Tank Corps
2nd Guards Tank Army (HQ Fürstenberg) · Soviet 1st Mechanized Corps, 9th Tank Corps, 12th Guard Tank Corps
4th Guards Tank Army (HQ Eberswalde) · 5th Guards Mechanised Corps, 6th Guards Mechanised Corps ; 10th Guards Tank Corps
2nd Shock Army (HQ Schwerin) · 109th Rifle Corps (46th, 90th, 372nd Rifle Divisions), 116th Rifle Corps (86th, 321st, 326th Rifle Division) 40th Guards Rifle Corps
3rd Shock Army (HQ Stendal) · 7th Rifle Corps (146th, 265th, 364th Rifle Divisions) ; 12th Guard Rifle Corps (23rd Guards, 52nd Guards, 33rd Rifle Divisions); 79th Rifle Corps (150th, 171st, 207th Rifle Divisions) 9th Tank Corps
5th Shock Army (HQ Berlin) · 9th Rifle Corps (248th, 301st Rifle Divisions); 26th Guard Rifle Corps (89th Guards, 94th Guards, 266th Rifle Divisions); 32nd Rifle Corps (60th Guards, 295th, 416th Rifle Divisions); 230th Rifle Division; three independent tank brigades
8th Guards Army (HQ Nohra) 4th Guards Rifle Corps (35th, 47th, 57th Guard Rifle Divisions) · 28th Guard Rifle Corps (39th, 79th, 88th Guard Rifle Division) · 29th Guard Rifle Corps (27th, 74th, 82nd Guard Rifle Divisions) · 11th Tank Corps
47th Army (HQ Halle) · 77th Rifle Corps (185th, 260th, 328th Rifle Division) · 125th Rifle Corps (60th, 76th, 175th Rifle Divisions) · 129th Rifle Corps (82nd, 132nd, 143rd Rifle Divisions) · 1st Guards Tank Corps and the 25th Tank Corps.