Quote Originally Posted by Rank amateur View Post
The problem is that no one likes to be defeated, and they're not defeated unless they quit, so if you don't offer an opportunity to save face, they don't quit.

The Sunnis in Iraq are a good example. They never surrendered. They forced us to offer them a deal. Which goes back to my original point. Unless you start killing women and children in retaliation for not surrendering, ""legitimate, discriminate, poportional force doesn't produce unambigious results.
If someone has an option not to quit, then they are clearly not defeated. Defeat means "choosing not to continue." Any situation that allows options, other than quitting, is not a defeat. If they choose to continue, then no decision.

The IRA never surrendered, but they gave up the armed struggle. Communists in Malaya are also an example.