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  1. #1
    Council Member Boot's Avatar
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    Default This captures some of my thoughts on this subject...

    A Marine colonel with substantial command time addressed some BIG problems that will arise.

    What,he asked, does “serving openly as a homosexual” mean?
    Is all homosexual conduct permitted, e.g. cross dressing when going to the PX? What conduct is not permitted?
    Will “hate speech” policies apply to the armed forces after the repeal of the law? If a service member uses a term offensive to homosexuals, can he be charged with hate speech? Will commanders be required to take judicial action? If no judicial action is taken, will commanders be subject to civil or criminal suit by various homosexual political groups and their elected sponsors?
    Will the personal opinion on homosexuality of a service member become an impediment to promotion or assignment to key billets? Are there any assignments to which homosexuals must be or may not be assigned?
    Will the Senate and the House Armed Services committees demand sexuality statistics to make certain that homosexuals are being promoted at the same rate as non-homosexuals? Will homosexuals be promoted at a faster rate to “compensate” for previous years of discrimination?
    What benefits will same-sex “partners” receive? How long must one have a relationship to qualify as a partner? Will partners of homosexuals be assigned to on-base housing? Do former partners of active duty homosexuals retain dependent benefits (like a divorced spouse) when divorce is not a legal option?
    Will homosexual service members be permitted to date each other? Live with each other as partners in bachelor officer quarters (BOQ) or bachelor enlisted quarters (BEQ)? How does this affect fraternization regulations?
    Will homosexuals be deployed to countries where homosexuality is a crime? If not, who picks up the slack?
    (Mod's Note: text was in red, placed in quote marks and no link. PM to author).

    Some thoughts:
    What about those who ARE offended by homosexual behavior or homosexuals in general? are their rights not taken into consideration? How about the male who is serving and now walks into a bathroom and there is an openly serving male? or the reverse? Since the openly gay male is orientated female, should he be in the male bathroom? Shouldn't he be in the female bathroom? What about those females who don't want physical male using this facility? How about basic training? Are you now going to force those who see homosexuality as sin to shower, train etc...in close quarters?

    As you can see, there are some larger issues beyond "I don't like homosexuals" that need to be addressed.
    There was nothing wrong with the policy. Our military has long been used as a social experiment. THAT beyond this policy repel is what is and will continue to erode unit effectiveness.

    Me personally. I am sure I have served with homosexuals, I don't want to know, nor do I care. I do see it as a sin, as my faith compels me to do so. I am sure that will step on toes, but I don't care; however I also refuse to discriminate against anyone because of what they believe or look like etc...
    I do think that at this point in time, this is the absolute wrong time to address this.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 12-20-2010 at 10:31 PM. Reason: Moderator action

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boot View Post
    A Marine colonel with substantial command time addressed some BIG problems that will arise.

    What,he asked, does “serving openly as a homosexual” mean?
    Is all homosexual conduct permitted, e.g. cross dressing when going to the PX? What conduct is not permitted?
    Will “hate speech” policies apply to the armed forces after the repeal of the law? If a service member uses a term offensive to homosexuals, can he be charged with hate speech? Will commanders be required to take judicial action? If no judicial action is taken, will commanders be subject to civil or criminal suit by various homosexual political groups and their elected sponsors?
    Will the personal opinion on homosexuality of a service member become an impediment to promotion or assignment to key billets? Are there any assignments to which homosexuals must be or may not be assigned?
    Will the Senate and the House Armed Services committees demand sexuality statistics to make certain that homosexuals are being promoted at the same rate as non-homosexuals? Will homosexuals be promoted at a faster rate to “compensate” for previous years of discrimination?
    What benefits will same-sex “partners” receive? How long must one have a relationship to qualify as a partner? Will partners of homosexuals be assigned to on-base housing? Do former partners of active duty homosexuals retain dependent benefits (like a divorced spouse) when divorce is not a legal option?
    Will homosexual service members be permitted to date each other? Live with each other as partners in bachelor officer quarters (BOQ) or bachelor enlisted quarters (BEQ)? How does this affect fraternization regulations?
    Will homosexuals be deployed to countries where homosexuality is a crime? If not, who picks up the slack?
    We have solutions in place to deal with all of these issues as they related to female soldiers and black soldiers. I don't see why enacting similar solutions with regards to gay soldiers will be an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boot View Post
    Some thoughts:
    What about those who ARE offended by homosexual behavior or homosexuals in general? are their rights not taken into consideration? How about the male who is serving and now walks into a bathroom and there is an openly serving male? or the reverse? Since the openly gay male is orientated female, should he be in the male bathroom? Shouldn't he be in the female bathroom? What about those females who don't want physical male using this facility? How about basic training? Are you now going to force those who see homosexuality as sin to shower, train etc...in close quarters?
    Well... what about those people? What rights of theirs are being violated by allowing gays to serve? The military doesn't go out of its way to accommodate soldiers who are uncomfortable around black people; why should it go out of its way to accommodate soldiers who are uncomfortable around homosexuals?
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 12-20-2010 at 10:32 PM. Reason: Remove red text

  3. #3
    Council Member Boot's Avatar
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    Default Apples and oranges...

    Quote Originally Posted by motorfirebox View Post
    We have solutions in place to deal with all of these issues as they related to female soldiers and black soldiers. I don't see why enacting similar solutions with regards to gay soldiers will be an issue.


    Well... what about those people? What rights of theirs are being violated by allowing gays to serve? The military doesn't go out of its way to accommodate soldiers who are uncomfortable around black people; why should it go out of its way to accommodate soldiers who are uncomfortable around homosexuals?
    Tell me how homosexuality which is a life choice is the same as being born a women or black? There is no evidence that you are born that way. From my experience working with a genetic researcher, there is no evidence. The researcher didn't have an opinion either way.
    You haven't answered the questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boot View Post
    Tell me how homosexuality which is a life choice is the same as being born a women or black? There is no evidence that you are born that way. From my experience working with a genetic researcher, there is no evidence. The researcher didn't have an opinion either way.
    You haven't answered the questions.
    Homosexuality a life choice? No. People get killed, jailed, fired for being gay. Nobody would choose that. That is simple logic.

  5. #5
    Council Member Boot's Avatar
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    Default No kidding...

    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Homosexuality a life choice? No. People get killed, jailed, fired for being gay. Nobody would choose that. That is simple logic.
    and those who choose to do that are making life choices. It is. No real evidence supports that people are born this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boot View Post
    and those who choose to do that are making life choices. It is. No real evidence supports that people are born this way.
    I am offering my opinion, no more.

    It is IMHO insane to believe that two young guys in Iran decided to fool around so that they can get arrested, tortured then hung... as a matter of personal choice. This homosexual business goes way beyond personal choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boot View Post
    Tell me how homosexuality which is a life choice is the same as being born a women or black? There is no evidence that you are born that way. From my experience working with a genetic researcher, there is no evidence. The researcher didn't have an opinion either way.
    You haven't answered the questions.
    Goddammit, I am a straight person but I have to truly bite my tongue to resist calling you a XXX.

    When did you decide to be straight? I didn't decide, nor did you. If you have to make a conscious choice every day to find women attractive, I may have some unsettling news for you (here's a hint: you might be gay)! I was fortunate to be born straight. Some people simply find themselves attracted to the same sex.

    Every gay person I know, which is a great deal because I was raised in a very gay city (take a guess), has said they cannot arbitrarily choose who they are attracted to. They never made a conscious choice to be attracted to men or to women. I like women who are around 5 foot 4, with curves, a stacked ass, tanned skin, and a hot face. I didn't make a checklist one day and determine I loved those things from there on out.

    The best thing about this is that history will vindicate me. People like you will be remembered as fondly as those who fought to deny black people their human rights prior to the Civil Rights Act. Gay people may be weird as hell sometimes, but they're human just like us, and they deserve equal rights.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 12-22-2010 at 09:16 PM. Reason: Word deleted as intemperate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Ex View Post
    Goddammit, I am a straight person but I have to truly bite my tongue to resist calling you a XXX.
    I'm a little disappointed as I thought you were on the right track arguing your point with dignity and intellect.

    This post is just a load of Sierra and leaves me with the impression you will simply continue.

    Please tone it down and attack the subject not the council members.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 12-22-2010 at 09:17 PM. Reason: Update by PM
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    The whole sexuality = choice thing seems to be specifically U.S. myth.
    I've never heard or read it coming from any European source. The whole idea is alien in Germany (and would be laughed at by almost everyone here).


    Tip for U.S. culture wars: Look at other Western nations. Many nations have settled the very same issues long ago, usually overwhelmingly in favour of a specific answer.

    Germany addressed almost all of the current U.S. culture war topics in the period of 1880-2000 and laid them to permanent rest.

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    Same as Fuchs said.

    I really don't get the hub-bub. I had both a gay and a lesbian soldier under my command; all the horror stories you tell are simply not true.

    Funny, while the end of the world(TM) is being debated the Canadian military just updated its dress policy to address transgendered members.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    The whole sexuality = choice thing seems to be specifically U.S. myth.
    I've never heard or read it coming from any European source. The whole idea is alien in Germany (and would be laughed at by almost everyone here).

    Tip for U.S. culture wars: Look at other Western nations. Many nations have settled the very same issues long ago, usually overwhelmingly in favour of a specific answer.

    Germany addressed almost all of the current U.S. culture war topics in the period of 1880-2000 and laid them to permanent rest.
    In turn every nation needs to address this issue and now its the time of the US military.

    The generals were correct in that the military is not ready for gays to serve openly in the military. The military is being being to be the social guinea-pig for the nation.

    The generals (perhaps) argued the case badly but I would have thought that they would have told the legislators to first amend the constitution and any legislation (as applicable) before forcing this on the military. Then they should have been honest about the MST (military sexual trauma) incidence in the military currently.

    http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...546344551.html

    "2,200 reported rapes in the military in 2007" is an outrageous figure and based on the generally accept rule of thumb that 8-10 times the reported rape figure go unreported.

    It gets worse:

    'I reported the rape within 30 minutes - then watched my career implode'

    " During the last Gulf war, 8% of women sent overseas were sexually assaulted or raped, according to a study by researchers for the Department of Veterans' Affairs. "
    The generals were correct... this is not the right time to open the gates.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boot View Post
    A Marine colonel with substantial command time addressed some BIG problems that will arise.

    What,he asked, does “serving openly as a homosexual” mean?
    Is all homosexual conduct permitted, e.g. cross dressing when going to the PX? What conduct is not permitted?
    Will “hate speech” policies apply to the armed forces after the repeal of the law? If a service member uses a term offensive to homosexuals, can he be charged with hate speech? Will commanders be required to take judicial action? If no judicial action is taken, will commanders be subject to civil or criminal suit by various homosexual political groups and their elected sponsors?
    Will the personal opinion on homosexuality of a service member become an impediment to promotion or assignment to key billets? Are there any assignments to which homosexuals must be or may not be assigned?
    Will the Senate and the House Armed Services committees demand sexuality statistics to make certain that homosexuals are being promoted at the same rate as non-homosexuals? Will homosexuals be promoted at a faster rate to “compensate” for previous years of discrimination?
    What benefits will same-sex “partners” receive? How long must one have a relationship to qualify as a partner? Will partners of homosexuals be assigned to on-base housing? Do former partners of active duty homosexuals retain dependent benefits (like a divorced spouse) when divorce is not a legal option?
    Will homosexual service members be permitted to date each other? Live with each other as partners in bachelor officer quarters (BOQ) or bachelor enlisted quarters (BEQ)? How does this affect fraternization regulations?
    Will homosexuals be deployed to countries where homosexuality is a crime? If not, who picks up the slack?
    If the ascribed marine colonel reads the DADT Survey report, it addresses all the above issues pretty well in detail.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 12-20-2010 at 10:33 PM. Reason: Removed text in red
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    Some data from a friend:

    --"Gays in Foreign Militaries," Armed Forces and Society, Palm Center at UCSB, Feb 2010
    --"How Troops Really Feel about Gays Openly Serving," Military Times, Feb 2010
    --"Attitudes of Iraq and Afghanistan War Veterans Toward Gay and Lesbian Service Members," Armed Forces and Society, Palm Center at UCSB, Oct 2009

    Key Points from the "Gays in Foreign Militaries" study:


    1. Twenty-five nations now allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military.



    Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bermuda, Brazil, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Peru, Philippines, Romania, Russia, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, Uruguay



    Put another way, of the 26 countries that participate militarily in NATO, more than 20 permit open lesbians, gays, or bisexuals to serve; of the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council, three (United Kingdom, France, and Russia) do so.



    2. Level of homophobia exaggerated in foreign cases. In many of those countries, debate before the policy changes was highly pitched and many people both inside and outside the military predicted major disruptions. In Britain and Canada, roughly two thirds of military respondents in polls said they would refuse to serve with open gays, but when inclusive policies were implemented, no more than three people in each country actually resigned.



    3. No negative long-term impact on readiness. Research has uniformly shown that transitions to policies of equal treatment without regard to sexual orientation have been highly successful. Of the twenty-five nations that dropped their bans none have experienced any negative impact on morale, recruitment, retention, readiness or overall combat effectiveness. No consulted expert anywhere in the world concluded that lifting the ban on openly gay service caused an overall decline in the military. There was still residual resentment, resistance laudable through grumblings in all-male unites about homosexual threats to unit morale.



    4. No country has reversed the law. Early assessments by both military and independent analysts hold across time: none of the successes and gains of transitions to full inclusion were reversed by any of the nations studied, or yielded delayed problems over the years in which these militaries allowed openly gay service.



    5. Additional societal benefits. In these other countries, evidence suggests that lifting bans on openly gay service contributed to improving the command climate in foreign militaries, including increased focus on behavior and mission rather than identity and difference, greater respect for rules and policies that reflect the modern military, a decrease in harassment, retention of critical personnel, and enhanced respect for privacy.



    6. Swift and decisive implementation most effective. All the countries studied completed their implementations of repeal either immediately or within four months of the government’s decision to end discrimination. These experiences confirm research findings which show that a quick, simple implementation process is instrumental in ensuring success. Swift, decisive implementation signals the support of top leadership and confidence that the process will go smoothly, while a “phased-in” implementation can create anxiety, confusion, and obstructionism.



    7. Top-cover is critical in transition/implementation. Two main factors contributed to the success of transitions to openly gay service: clear signals of leadership support and a focus on a uniform code of behavior without regard to sexual orientation. Also key are simple training guidelines that communicate the support of leadership, that explain the uniform standards for conduct, and that avoid “sensitivity” training, which can backfire by causing resentment in the ranks.



    8. Not separate, but equal. None of the countries studied installed separate facilities for gay troops, nor did they retain rules treating gays differently from heterosexuals. Each country has taken its own approach to resolving questions of benefits, housing, partner recognition, and re-instatement. Generally, the military honors the status afforded to gay or lesbian couples by that country, and the military rarely gets out in front of the government or other institutions in the benefits offered.



    9. No mass exodus or increased harassment at any level. Lifting bans on openly gay service in foreign countries did not result in a mass “coming out” at any level. Gay and lesbian troops serve in all levels of the armed forces of Britain, Canada, Australia, South Africa, and Israel, in both combat and non-combat positions, at both the enlisted level and as high commanders.



    10. Current law contradicts military bedrock values. Honesty and integrity are bedrock values of the military. How can we ask capable service members to be deceitful about their orientation and still uphold those values?



    Other random factoids from the study:



    - An estimated 66,000 lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals account for approximately 2.2% of military personnel.

    - Approximately 13,000 LGB people are serving on active duty (comprising 0.9% of all active duty personnel) while nearly 53,000 are serving in the guard and reserve forces (3.4%).

    - While women comprise only about 14% of active duty personnel, they comprise more than 43% of LGB men and women serving on active duty.

    - Lifting DADT restrictions could attract an estimated 36,700 men and women to active duty service and 12,000 more individuals to the guard and reserve.

    - Since its inception in 1994, the “Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell” policy has cost the military between $290 million and more than a half a billion dollars.

    - The military spends an estimated $22,000 to $43,000 per person to replace those discharged under DADT.
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    Link to survey

    I didn't get much out of this survey, but it does what most surveys claim to do and the stats are great for those who care.

    First, we did not “poll” the military or conduct a referendum on the overall question of whether to repeal the current Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell law and policy. That was not our mission, nor are military policy decisions made by referendum of Service members. Our primary mission was to assess the impact of a repeal, should it occur to military readiness, military effectiveness, unit cohesion, recruiting, retention, and family readiness.

    Second, many of the survey questions were devised in response to concerns raised frequently by Service members in information exchange forums and focus group sessions. For example, the questions about privacy and living arrangements were asked in response to the concerns expressed by a large number of Service members in our discussions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cavguy View Post
    Some data from a friend:
    Great stuff CavGuy.
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