Arizona Rep. Giffords' shooter called very disturbed.

[91bravojoe]

Substantial air of disreality certainly manifest here. There is NO COMPARISON between what the left(whatever that means in America) and the right have said. Review the explicitness in this list:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...10.php?ref=fpa

If you broaden out a little, you plow into actual conduct, involving hundreds of incidents and 8 actual murders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

Show me the 'left' involvement in that multi-decade history.

On the other hand, here's an opportunity to spiff up your wardrobe:

http://www.zazzle.com/tea_party_rall...26866986316482

Currently in stock.

[IntelTrooper]

Substantial air of disreality certainly manifest here. There is NO COMPARISON between what the left(whatever that means in America) and the right have said. Review the explicitness in this list:

You can proof text all day, but you still haven't addressed the widely-reported description of the shooter as a leftist and deeply disturbed -- beyond the reach of any particular political rhetoric.

Show me the 'left' involvement in that multi-decade history.

Just off the top of my head...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbionese_Liberation_Army

[Ken White]

"And as I said earlier, the bottom line is that this is not a political discussion board -- so while a brief unbiased comment on political ramifications is acceptable, even desirable, we should save the leaning in either direction politics for elsewhere. That means NOT 'intending' to provoke politically biased responses.

Thanks."

I asked nicely. Opinions on either side of this argument certainly exist among people who frequent this Board, however, most know that purely political discussions do not belong here. Please move any further comments to a political board and let's drop it here. I'd hate to lock this thread due to ideologically based comments that belong elsewhere.

[IntelTrooper]

Sorry, Ken. 91bravojoe -- ignore my post.

[Fuchs]

You can proof text all day, but you still haven't addressed the widely-reported description of the shooter as a leftist (...)

I do obviously not watch U.S. news all day, but I recall having read that the "leftist" description originates from Fox news and was criticised for being partisan propaganda. I watch CNN International when I'm bored (it doesn't help against that condition, though) and so far they didn't associate him with either wing - nor did German media so far afaik.

The guy had according to reports both marxist and fascist titles in his favourite books list.

It's likely best to completely ignore the topic for a month, skip all those preliminary (and often wrong) info in the meantime. Then in a month when people have calmed down we can read up somewhat robust info on the topic and form an opinion in a calm situation.

[jmm99]

and according to USA Today, Loughner's lawyer is 'One-Woman Dream Team', with an interesting prior client list:

HIGH-PROFILE CLIENT LIST

Criminal defense attorney Judy Clarke has been involved in several high-profile cases. Among them:

-- Zacarias Moussaoui. The 9/11 conspirator represented himself during his 2006 trial. Clarke served as an adviser to him. He is serving a life sentence.

-- Eric Rudolph. Known as "Olympic Park Bomber," he pleaded guilty in 2005 to a series of bombings, including the 1996 Olympics bombing in Atlanta that killed one person and injured 111 others. He is serving life in prison.

-- Theodore Kaczynski. Known as the "Unabomber," he pleaded guilty in 1998 to a mail-bombing campaign that spanned almost 20 years and killed three people and injured 23 others. He is serving a life sentence.

-- Susan Smith. She was convicted in 1995 of drowning her two toddler sons in a lake in Union, S.C., in 1994. She is serving a life sentence with the possibility of parole in November 2024.

Regards

Mike

[anonamatic]

I think politics is just what this guy fixated on, it could have easily have been a specific corporation that he had a job at, or some family members, or any of thousands of other things to become attached to in a twisted up way.

This really had to do with badly handling mental illness and firearms in that locality. The US needs to revisit how we deal with those issues in a way that is not offensive to the second amendment. I think it's possible to do it, and I think it's an issue that could be solved with guidance rather than any sort of national legislation.

Virginia had a lot of problems with this, and it took some real tragedy for them to improve. The not so smart thing was for everyone else not to invest in learning from their mistakes. This is one result of that. While politicians in the US need to be more civil than they have rather stupidly chosen not to be, it's not all about that to be sure. We can survive bad language, but people don't survive when mentally ill people get violent with weapons of any sort.

[J Wolfsberger]

This really had to do with badly handling mental illness and firearms in that locality. The US needs to revisit how we deal with those issues in a way that is not offensive to the second amendment.

Arizona law does prohibit selling firearms to the mentally ill. But they need to be identified in the system for the law to work. Jared Loughner's behavior gave plenty of warning to students and faculty at the community college. There were, reportedly, incidents with law enforcement intervention at his home. That was what prompted my question to Slap about protocols for identifying and dealing with the mentally ill. The relevance to SWC is that the sociopathy and/or fanaticism that lead to terrorism often give plenty of warning signals as well. Maybe the topics for discussion should be:

What are the protocols?
How did they break down in this instance?
How should they be changed?
How should they be extended to identify the truly dangerous without curtailing the freedom of ordinary citizens?

[slapout9]

Arizona law does prohibit selling firearms to the mentally ill. But they need to be identified in the system for the law to work. Jared Loughner's behavior gave plenty of warning to students and faculty at the community college. There were, reportedly, incidents with law enforcement intervention at his home. That was what prompted my question to Slap about protocols for identifying and dealing with the mentally ill. The relevance to SWC is that the sociopathy and/or fanaticism that lead to terrorism often give plenty of warning signals as well. Maybe the topics for discussion should be:

What are the protocols?
How did they break down in this instance?
How should they be changed?
How should they be extended to identify the truly dangerous without curtailing the freedom of ordinary citizens?

Here is the Bible as far as I am concerned, other than that it is largely a funding issue. Link to Protective Intelligence and Threat Assessment Investigations a guide for LE.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/170612.pdf

[anonamatic]

Arizona law does prohibit selling firearms to the mentally ill. But they need to be identified in the system for the law to work. Jared Loughner's behavior gave plenty of warning to students and faculty at the community college. There were, reportedly, incidents with law enforcement intervention at his home. That was what prompted my question to Slap about protocols for identifying and dealing with the mentally ill. The relevance to SWC is that the sociopathy and/or fanaticism that lead to terrorism often give plenty of warning signals as well. Maybe the topics for discussion should be:

What are the protocols?
How did they break down in this instance?
How should they be changed?
How should they be extended to identify the truly dangerous without curtailing the freedom of ordinary citizens?

I think all states have laws that will allow them to prevent weapons sales to the mentally ill. They all also have laws allowing some level of non-consensual restraint of the mentally ill if they present some danger to themselves or others.

Let me be very clear, in many jurisdictions those laws are nearly meaningless. I've had to deal with a mentally ill relative for years, I have way too much personal experience with the gawping inadequacies of various state systems to believe very many of them have their acts together. Most do not. Even Virginia is backsliding, which is particularly stupid given it's proximity to Wash. DC.

It's only when the mentally ill kill the rich & powerful, or a whole lot of regular lower net worth people at one time, or the young in a group, that anyone considers doing anything serious about problems they've made with how they deal with mentally ill in their communities. I am both unsurprised by the events in Arizona, and I expect more of the same elsewhere. Community mental health is a *favorite* target of GOP politicians everywhere, and it's one of the first things on the block whenever anyone wants to tighten the belt. Communities care more about the grass getting cut at their children's parks than they do about their fellow citizens dying from mental illness. Sadly though when mentally ill people get violent they kill other people besides themselves. Like many of the other thoroughly ignored facts (Hello President McKinley) surrounding the issue of weapons and sick people, we're just going to keep doing what we've been doing.

The problem in this instance is not one of some type of weapon, rather it's literally a biological issue with the species that we are not handling well.

To give an example, I know without even doing hard comparisons (because I know about the state's 3 strike pizza culture) that it's way easier to get someone locked up in California for stealing a slice of pizza than it is to get them detained for being a threat to themselves or others.

The laws are a patchwork, and rather than being advocates & providing guidance about weapons regulation & the mentally ill, the NRA's so vicious about the 2nd amendment that no one's going to take this on. Yes, there's an obvious roaring dichotomy between a person who owns a weapon and cares about being responsible with it who then becomes *biologically ill* in such a manner that they can no longer be responsible, who then becomes the very sort of threat the NRA likes to rail against.

I could spend no end of days writing about all the totally awful behavior I have seen from courts and communities. Bad behavior in various `systems' is far more remarkable than any of the tinfoil wearing crazyness I've seen when I've visited my relative on nut wards.

People are kidding themselves if they think this will get fixed in any way. I expect more of the same. I'd recommend that anyone bothering to read this do the same. I predicted the VA Tech event fairly reliably, so I've got some reasonable basis to assert further negative outcomes.

[J Wolfsberger]

... the "leftist" description originates from Fox news and was criticised for being partisan propaganda. [/I]

The "leftist" description actually originated from class mates asked about his political beliefs. Their coverage has been along the lines of: his political beliefs aren't relevant since he's obviously severely mentally ill.

[Firn]

It was of course a very disturbing attack, and I hope that the wounded and the families of the victims overcome their physical and mental wounds.