I find your post "spot-on" in its entirety.
It roughly mirrors my experience living in Deutschland.
I also find the simultaneous beating of Germany for being militaristic and aggressive, in the past, and the beatings for not being militaristic and aggressive enough in the present/future as being cryptic.
I can see where the typical German would be confused about what America wants out of them....
An addition might be appropriate:
# Muslims in Germany
Many people seem to consider Germany and othr parts of Europe as somehow infested by Muslim minorities who might weaken the nation's resolve.
Actually Turkish emigrants live in Germany (usually 1st to 3rd generation) in great numbers (few millions).
Many of them have a German passport.
Today, Turkish emigration to Germany is almost impossible if the Turk don#t marry Germans.
The Turks and German-Turks are no Arabs. They are partly Alevites (moderate Muslims) and msot of them come from rural, not highly developed regions of Turkey, being actually more conservative than modern Turkey at times (1st generation). The first generation is now approaching the retirement age and some of them might soon return to Turkey for a cheaper living.
The 3rd generation is not really Turkish anymore, but very often close to a stereotype that resembles the stereotype of Young black ghetto children.
Their education is on average inferior, their command of both German and Turkish often not satisfactory, they haven't been fully raised as German nor as Turk. Most of them don't appear to be prone to become terrorist.
In short: They want to have a black BMW series 3 car much more than some dozen virgins in paradise. Almost all have a German passport or are entitled to get one.
The real troublemakers are some non-EU citizens Imams from Turkey without knowledge of Germany who sometimes preach rather radical Islam which is not possible in Turkey due to the Turkish laws. We could easily send them away, as their entitlement to stay can easily be revoked in almost all cases.
The other problem group consists of convertites who tend to be (as in all religions) rather radical.
Which is also colored by the 'typical' German view of America which (when I was there in the early 1980s) was formed almost entirely by "Dallas," "Dynasty," and "Rambo." I suspect these days it's a mish-mash of "The Real World" and one gangsta video/film too many.Originally Posted by 120mm
I remember the Turkish 'guest worker' situation being a bit of a high-temp subject back in the early '80s, though not the hotbed of bomb-throwing radicalism that many seem to think it might be (that distinction was reserved for students from the Free University in Berlin). The change mentioned by Fuchs was evident even then. Of course, reunification has changed the social makeup of Germany considerably since then. I think many in the US (and elsewhere) underestimate the impact that had on Germany in many ways (social, economic, political).
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Outcasts = Rambo
Steve Blair said:
"Which is also colored by the 'typical' German view of America which was formed ... in the early 1980s almost entirely by "Dallas," "Dynasty," and "Rambo." I suspect these days it's a mish-mash of "The Real World" and one gangsta video/film too many."
1. The first sentence is a nice example for illegitimate generalization & misinformation. - How long was Mr. Blair in Germany and how many people did he meet? Apparently he hasn't been there for over 20 years but still wants to talk about things he cannot have current information about. I would rather go with Fuchs who is actually a German/or at least currently living there.
2. The "Aero Outcasts" badge Mr. Blair displays is IMO much more inspired by "Rambo" than anything else ...
3. "I suspect...": Lets hope this site goes back from "suspicion" to "information".
Got some bad news for you, Bruz...the patch from First Squadron, Fourth Cavalry predates Rambo by some years.
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Herzlich wilkommen
Fuchs,
Herzlich wilkommen und vielen dank fur ihren rat auf dieser thema (Deutschland).
I would be very interested in any references that you would be willing to share. At the moment I am a bit short on time however I have a few topics that I have been following and would enjoy your take on any that of interest to you; The German Navy had been (continues?) to patrol off of Lebanon, Die Ziet has had a series of interesting articles about computer/State monitoring of late, energy costs are of concern, and I note that commerce with Russia and Germany is very robust. I also find it fascinating that Germany is so strong with regards to photovoltaics - Germany is an engineering powerhouse however the weather (often overcast) is not really conducive to pv as compared to other parts of the world. Weather-wise I have also seen reports of Tornados! in Germany, this is something I expect in Kansas but certainly not Germany. Finally, the German PRT's in the north of Afghanistan have also captured my interest and I would appreciate your insights.
Regards,
Steve
Last edited by Surferbeetle; 05-30-2008 at 02:44 PM.
Sapere Aude
I guess a source on the Afghanistan polls would be a good start.
The blue line (34% in Sep 07)says how many want our troops to stay in Iraq, the red one how many say they should withdraw.
The results are sometimes published in journals, the source institute Infratest dimap does the poll quite often with the same questions, but doesn't publish all results for an easy access like this one.
The Spiegel published these Infratest dimap numbers in IIRC February 08:
"Should the Bundeswehr continue to be stationed in Afghanistan?"
yes: 42% no: 55%
"Should the Bundeswehr do combat missions in Afghanistan like other nations' troops do?"
yes: 13% no: 86%
The navy is still at the coastline of Lebanon (pointless) and Somalia (blocking AQ - pointless as well. But it comes handy due to the recent pirate activity. The frigate has collected lots of intel on the situation there before the piracy problem erupted).
The present numbers of soldiers in so-called "out-of-area" missions is always up-to-date here:
http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bw...lVRS82X0NfNDJE
Actually, I forgot to mention a handful of Tornados that are now included in OEF as well.
Germany's trade with many nations is very "robust". We export and import extremely much (especially in comparison to GNP,see the CIA World Factbook for some easy statistics), and our balance surplus is a quite unknown problem.
Trade with Russia is sometimes in the news because natural gas sources are not diversified enough. We get too much natural gas from Russia.
Photovoltaic power; well, the other solar power technologies work with direct radiation, photovoltaic power works with scattered solar radiation as well. That's why we're looking at it: Because of our clouds.
Tornados. Well, every country has at least one ####ty newspaper, I guess.
But I've got something more interesting. Yesterday we had a cloud over parts of Western Germany that dropped not only an unbelievable volume of water - it also darkened whole regions like an eclipse. I had 10m sight range at 11 o'clock in the morning!
The PRT in Northern Afghanistan is outside of the originally allowed mission and it required quite some discussions to set it up with originally 42 men (with new parliament's mandate). It looks successful (although it had some troubles with harassing fires that stopped only when additional infantry began to patrol the area. There were also some IED/RPG attacks.)
I don't know much about its activities - Afghanistan news are very rare in Germany anyway and I'm out of uniform since some years. I saw a NGO-made map about deterioration/improvement of travel safety in Afghanistan which highlighted the Kunduz and Kabul regions as (almost) the only two regions with major improvements IIRC.
I personally consider the Afghan war as a civil war and don't think that we need to participate.
P.S.: I'm sorry about the many typos in the opening post. I used a browser without spelling check...
Last edited by Fuchs; 05-30-2008 at 04:29 PM.
Interesting stuff, Fuchs. Thanks!
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
It got to Oberpfalz by 1900. Scary high winds and great big hammerhead clouds.
We are from Iowa, where tornadoes and really big thunderstorms are normally a nightly occurence at this time of year, and we were outside when it happened. My wife and I looked at each other, and said "uh oh!" thinking tornadic activity all the way.
And the temperature drop/extreme darkness was unreal....
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