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Equipment & Capabilities Relevant capabilities and equipment are table stakes for winning those hearts and minds.

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Old 09-01-2008   #1
SWJED
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Default All about Camouflage & BCU (inc cartoons)

Moderator's Note: There were seven threads on matters camouflage, BCU etc, including several which featured Oprah and cartoons. All now merged here and the title amended.


Who said Army doctrine writers don't have a sense of humor? Well - okay - but this brought a smile to our small mugs. Kudos CADD and a hat tip to LTC Shawn Stroud for sending this along.

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Old 09-11-2008   #2
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Default Oprah was in CAMO!

She came to Campbell while I was there, after the infamous "post OIF baby boom", to give away maternity and baby gifts to spouses.

They made her go to Air Assault School, first. She had to conduct two successful rappels from the tower before she could start her show.
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Old 09-13-2008   #3
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Pearls is without doubt my favourite online comic. Its dry wit and macabre sense of humour has instant appeal with me.

I'm sure Stephen would appreciate the modification to his work.
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Old 07-01-2009   #4
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Default Congress orders new camo for Afghanistan

What will it be? Multicam? A different colored digital? Anyone heard?

Link here: http://www.militarytimes.com/news/20...forms_061509w/
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Old 07-01-2009   #5
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Default How much do you want to bet....

Woodland
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Old 07-02-2009   #6
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Default Regarding the origin of the current Army pattern

Hyperstealth Biotechnologies did the research that led to the development of the Marine Corps camo, Canadian Camo, Jordanian Camo and many others. They use an extensive body of knowledge from diverse disciplines to develop sophisticated camouflage patterns.

Let's hear what they have to say about the Army pattern:
Quote:
Designed for multiple environments ARPAT was derived from the U.S. Marines digital MARPAT, however one main difference with ARPAT was the removal of black in the pattern leaving it with three colors and with only one color scheme for Woodland, Desert, and Urban we believe it is equally ineffective in each environment, we affectionately refer to ARPAT as the Alternate Reality Pattern as we cannot determine on what scientific basis it was developed.
(Source)

As near as I can tell, the Army acquisition corps determined that all of Hyperstealth's experience and research wasn't as credible as the 'feeling' that black was unnecessary in the camo pattern.

The problem is that a pattern needs dark speckling to create the illusion of depth. Without the dark speckling, the colors will appear flat and stand out against the background (the complaint against the current pattern). Note that the discontinued six color "desert day pattern" (AKA "The Chocolate Chip Pattern") had this type of speckling, but was discontinued due to manufacturing costs.
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Old 07-02-2009   #7
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My inner geardo votes for multicam...
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Old 07-02-2009   #8
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Default Costs of camo should be ignored and endursed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van View Post
Hyperstealth Biotechnologies did the research that led to the development of the Marine Corps camo, Canadian Camo, Jordanian Camo and many others. They use an extensive body of knowledge from diverse disciplines to develop sophisticated camouflage patterns.

Let's hear what they have to say about the Army pattern:
(Source)

As near as I can tell, the Army acquisition corps determined that all of Hyperstealth's experience and research wasn't as credible as the 'feeling' that black was unnecessary in the camo pattern.

The problem is that a pattern needs dark speckling to create the illusion of depth. Without the dark speckling, the colors will appear flat and stand out against the background (the complaint against the current pattern). Note that the discontinued six color "desert day pattern" (AKA "The Chocolate Chip Pattern") had this type of speckling, but was discontinued due to manufacturing costs.

I vote to spend whatever it takes for effective camo uniforms. Petty penny counting in this time of trillions at war mega costs is stupid and absurd, the responsible bean counters should be summarily fired.
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Old 07-02-2009   #9
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Default Following on Van's comment,

IIRC, the Natick rationale was that 'there is no black in nature...' one of the more brilliant statements by any Army proponent for something.

As for Woodland, one would hope not but the Army can be about that stupidly stubborn when someone tells them they have or had a bad idea. Scroll through the picures at the Multicam site (LINK) and note the Woodland - Multicam contrasts. The ACU has the same problem Woodland has as it is washed more or in harsh water /soaps, it fades badly and not only loses it anti IR properties but has an enhanced IR / thermal problem. Multicam seems to have found a solution to both problems.

The Army probably will not be willing to pay Crye for a license and will then develop its own pattern -- probably Woodland II which will be about as poor as Woodland was / is. Maybe they'll surprise me and do this right...

I'm with Rifleman and Reed, Multicam's about as good as it gets nowadays.

Added: and with George:
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the responsible bean counters should be summarily fired.
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Old 07-02-2009   #10
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I've always been a fan of the Afghan Border Police pattern, although I don't think it is any more effective at camouflaging the wearer than ACUs.
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Old 07-02-2009   #11
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There's always OG 107s.

After a few days in the field they usually looked like the last thing you had been rolling in, especially if they were a little faded out to start with.
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Old 07-02-2009   #12
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Default Chocolate chips

with mold?
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Old 07-02-2009   #13
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Why don't they camouflage themselves like the Afghan population
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Old 07-02-2009   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
Why don't they camouflage themselves like the Afghan population
Because the CSM's head would explode.
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Old 07-02-2009   #15
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Default Heh. True dat...

Need to make those guys responsible for training, give 'em something to do to keep them from silliness. Most experienced Soldier in a Battalion, theoretically, and no real job. The good ones find things that need doing, the others worry about police call and the type of watch cap being worn (if they allow them at all).

When one of you gentlemen gets to a position of power, change that paragraph in AR 600-200 that says a NCO selected by the Promotion Board will be promoted unless his Commander writes a letter to remove him for cause. Replace it with 'will be promoted when his Commander writes a letter of assent.' Commanders don't have time to write letters to preclude marginal people getting promoted so the slugs slide by. They will take time to write letters only for their really good people thus improving quality.

Promoting people just because they've been around a while is not conducive to rewarding quality performers or getting the best in position to do some good. Nor is promotion by photograph but that's another thread.
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Old 07-02-2009   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van View Post
As near as I can tell, the Army acquisition corps determined that all of Hyperstealth's experience and research wasn't as credible as the 'feeling' that black was unnecessary in the camo pattern.
I always wondered what the rationale was for not just copying the Marine camo, rather than wasting money on our own R&D. Once again, the Army does not let me down. I expected nothing any more logical.

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Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
IIRC, the Natick rationale was that 'there is no black in nature...' one of the more brilliant statements by any Army proponent for something.
I recall a Ranger Instructor saying something similar. He said that "nothing in nature is completely black." Someone raised his hand and asked, "what about shade?" Pretty good question for someone who probably hasn't slept in 3 days and thinks that his notebook is a candy bar. Regardless, the RI told him to STFU. I forget what the significance of the claim was or what point he was trying to make. There is black everywhere in nature. Maybe he meant that nothing is completely black from head to toe, or from root to stem, or something like that.
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Old 07-02-2009   #17
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Originally Posted by jkm_101_fso View Post
because the csm's head would explode.
roflmao. :d :d :d
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Old 07-02-2009   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
There is black everywhere in nature. Maybe he meant that nothing is completely black from head to toe, or from root to stem, or something like that.
I am so disillusioned... if the Army isn't an authority on zoological matters, what else could they be wrong about??


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Old 07-02-2009   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
There's always OG 107s.

After a few days in the field they usually looked like the last thing you had been rolling in, especially if they were a little faded out to start with.
Worked and worked well. Nothing wrong with OG's. The IDF has thought about Camo clothing and always rejected it, because it reality, it never works, once its out of its intended environment! ACU is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. Any expeditionary army needs 3 kinds of cammo, if it want's to play dress up.

If I was King, and some folks (congress) wanted something other than OG, I's suggest looking the old WW2 Pattern SAS Smock.



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Old 07-02-2009   #20
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Default Mr. Leo's War Tested Fashions

They tested the ACU at JRTC and I share my office with the Natick rep. I did give him a ration of ####e including:

Quote:
We've got a special man in the audience today, Right now, it's Mr Leo. He's a fashion consultant for the Army.

"Oh, thank you, Adrian. I'm just very happy to be here. I want to tell you something. You know, this whole camouflage thing for me doesn't work very well".

Why is that?

"Well, because you go in the jungle, I can't see you. You know, it's like wearing stripes and plaid. For me, I want to do something different."
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