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  1. #1
    Council Member Polarbear1605's Avatar
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    Default “Ahhh, the Lieber Code” says PB as he points his index finger into the air

    Jmm, thanks for getting the discussion back on course but you need to understand that professional military officers don’t like discussing war crimes…it makes them think and uncover cracks (actually gapping holes) in their strategic war fighting doctrine. Yes “warfighters”, that is a gauntlet you are staring at in front of your corfammed toes. In order to get this discussion going I will gladly defend Sherman and state he is not a war criminal (and maybe some of you will take five minutes to read the Lieber Code).
    Sherman is not a war criminal because he followed and obeyed his Laws of War (the Lieber Code – GO 100). The Lieber Code, at just over 9000 words, is a thing of beauty that served the US military well through the Civil War, the Indian Wars, the Spanish American War and the Philippine American War. The Lieber Code not only established the protection for wounded, POWs, and civilians but also demonstrated little tolerance for treachery. Because it did not enable treachery, it provided for the successful occupation of the Confederate States at the end of the civil war. An interesting study is the occupation at the end of the Civil War compared to the botched occupation of Iraq. One of the guiding principles of the Lieber Code in Article 29 states “The more vigorously wars are pursued the better it is for humanity. Sharp wars are brief.” That principle is long forgotten by our senior military leadership.
    "If you want a new idea, look in an old book"

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Unfortunately true...

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarbear1605 View Post
    One of the guiding principles of the Lieber Code in Article 29 states “The more vigorously wars are pursued the better it is for humanity. Sharp wars are brief.” That principle is long forgotten by our senior military leadership.
    Sherman applied not only the Lieber Code but also the prescription of a nominal enemy:

    ""War means fighting. The business of the soldier is to fight. Armies are not called out to dig trenches, to throw up breastworks, to live in camps, but to find the enemy and strike him; to invade his country, and do him all possible damage in the shortest possible time. This will involve great destruction of life and property while it lasts; but such a war will of necessity be of brief continuance, and so would be an economy of life and property in the end. To move swiftly, strike vigorously, and secure all the fruits of victory is the secret of successful war.""

    As quoted in Stonewall Jackson and the American Civil War (1904) by George Francis Robert Henderson, Ch. 25 : The Soldier and the Man, p. 481

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    How do we view gradual escalation, allowing safe havens, pretending to fight with civil affairs and nation building while placing combat as a secondary objective, etc. looking through the lens of the Lieber Code?

    Once again our egos destroy us, every officer out there wants to pretend he can come up with a new idea and redefine war and identify better ways to fight it, and the result is "forever wars" that cause untold suffering and forever damage the cultures/societies involved. Due to the duration of these half fought wars societies know nothing but war, peace is a foreign concept not easily embraced.
    Last edited by Bill Moore; 08-14-2011 at 07:32 PM.

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    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarbear1605 View Post
    The Lieber Code, at just over 9000 words, is a thing of beauty that served the US military well through the Civil War, the Indian Wars, the Spanish American War and the Philippine American War. The Lieber Code not only established the protection for wounded, POWs, and civilians but also demonstrated little tolerance for treachery.
    At the risk of taking the discussion back off course… Laws are as good as individuals’ and societies’ willingness and ability to enforce them. In the context of the Indian Wars Sheridan’s refusal to call Major Baker to task for the 1870 attack on Heavy Runner’s camp is a glaring lapse in enforcement (I’m not necessarily saying Baker was a war criminal, but there was enough evidence available to Sheridan to suggest negligence at the least) and in the context of the Philippine-American War the water cure was used in spite of Lieber’s Article 16. One should of course acknowledge that both occurred amongst professional soldiers called upon to administer ill-conceived and poorly articulated policy. Plus ça change.
    Last edited by ganulv; 08-14-2011 at 07:05 PM. Reason: typo fix
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

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    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Well to remember that the Civil War was the "war between the states, and not the war within the states; and not attempt too much to draw parallels that apply to an internal insurgency such as is taking place in Afghanistan.

    This may seem like an inconsequential distinction to many, but it is one of the most critical nature for me. As CvC wisely noted "The first, the supreme, the most far-reaching act of judgment that the statesman and commander have to make is to establish . . . the kind of war on which they are embarking.""

    I don't normally quote or refer to Carl for insurgency, but do so here to point out that one must understand if they are in a war, or if they are in an insurgency. Afghanistan is insurgency; and it is my contention that to follow the principles of warfare in insurgency is folly. The principles of civil emergency apply, and best to remember that such emergencies are almost always well rooted in some fundamental failures of government, rather than failures of populace.

    Now I realize that our military doctrine declares insurgency to be war ("complex war or warfare" actually), but that is what happens when one hands a problem to the military to resolve; they will tend to militarize it and couch it in the terms of their profession.

    Our doctrine is a proverbial "soup sandwich" on such conflicts, and all of the "new" ingredients that experts have been tossing into the mix over the past 10 years to make it easier to digest have made it even more unpalatable. It is high time we toss the whole mess out and start from scratch and rebuild it one term at at time. I am sure we will find that there will be several left over terms that are far better left out of the mix.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Bob's World; 08-14-2011 at 07:52 PM.
    Robert C. Jones
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    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

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    Well to remember that the Civil War was the "war between the states, and not the war within the states; and not attempt too much to draw parallels that apply to an internal insurgency such as is taking place in Afghanistan.
    That is only partially true and misleading in a respect. If we could simply erase Pakistan from the equation, then it would be an internal conflict, but the reality is that is a hybrid conflict that doesn't conform to simple definitions. It is part insurgency, part anarchy, part surrogate/UW, part global non-state actor inspired/supported, etc. This isn't Malaya or the Philippines (which we all understand, yet we still want to focus on a narrow COIN strategy).

    The principles of civil emergency apply, and best to remember that such emergencies are almost always well rooted in some fundamental failures of government, rather than failures of populace.
    This is definitely a large part of the problem, but not "the" problem. This statement assumes that if Afghanistan had a functional government that Pakistan and non-state actors would cease hostilities. While neither of us know, I suspect that isn't true, and I also suspect that "we" can't fix the Afghan government, so using that as a strategy is flawed from the outset.

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    A couple of other thoughts related to the above post.

    Much of our doctrine on COIN is centered on legitimacy, which in itself is a fuzzy term, but from a combatant perspective is legitimacy really the key to success?

    While not a fan of the center of gravity concept, it can be useful if we're honest with our analysis. As a source of power, the ability to continue the fight, etc., if the Afghanistan government was considered legitimate by a majority of Afghans would that stop the Taliban from fighting (as many of stated, the Taliban is loose coalition of various militant groups, so more appropriately would it reduce the level of violence to a manageable level?).

    On the other hand, if the power brokers in Pakistan felt the government in Afghanistan was legitimate how would that impact the level of violence?

    I don't know, but again suspect the COG in Pakistan is more relevant than the population in Afghanistan for reducing the level of violence to a managable level.

    Instead of jumping to assumptions, I think we need to ask a lot more questions to shed light on the problem, and then and only then discuss changes of strategy. I agree that our doctrine pushed us further and further down the wrong road, but I bet we disagree on what the right road is. We would probably agree if we had a common understanding of the problem that needs to be solved, and that is where we need to start anew.

  8. #8
    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Bill,

    I think I appreciate where you are coming from, and while it is a reasonable perspective I think a push into Pakistan in an effort to solve Afghanistan would find the same thing we found in Laos and Cambodia: A lot of targets to destroy, and perhaps are follow-on lull as the insurgency is forced to drop from a high Phase II back down into Phase I for a while as it recovers, and then surges back again stronger than ever. The bonus in Pakistan is that in launching into a nuclear state we risk far greater consequences than the US had to worry about in launching into Laos and Cambodia.

    If defeating the insurgent could resolve an insurgency this could work, but I just don't see where any enduring results have come from such actions. Pakistan's role in this is frustrating to be sure, but they are not the cause of our problems. If we want to find the cause of our problems better we look at our own actions:

    1. We disrupt the balance of power, allowing the Northern Alliance to prevail over the Taliban. (I am quite sure that as the Taliban fled into Pakistan they were very confident that the Northern Alliance could never have pulled that off without our help, and that as soon as we left they would come back and re-establish their government.

    2. We anointed Karzai to be the leader years before any election took place, and then in a result that the entire world recognized as rigged, Karzai wins that election as well.

    3. We oversee the formation of a "central" government that disrupts traditional systems of patronage; and guide the development of a constitution that says all the right things, but does all the wrong things, vesting all patronage nationally into that one man who we had anointed and elevated to lead Afghanistan.

    4. We then dedicate ourselves to the defense of this government we had created and set out in earnest to force the people of Afghanistan to submit to its rule.

    All Pakistan ever did was employ a shared Pashtun populace to maintain a degree of influence over Afghanistan, and quite reasonably supported a Taliban government that also drew its support from that same populace base in both countries.

    No, to launch an attack into Pakistan in an effort to "win" might make our egos feel better for a while, but it would not be the best thing we could do for the people of this region.

    To just walk away and let it sort out naturally would be less bloody and more durable.

    To stay with a focus shifted to building and enforcing trust trust between the two sides may prove to be an exercise in futility, but it is far better than to simply stay and help one side beat up on the other. But first we must change how we think about these things.
    Robert C. Jones
    Intellectus Supra Scientia
    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

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    While not ruling it out, I am not advocating attacking Pakistan, but rather reexaming the so called center of gravity. I don't think it is the Afghan people, I think it is the power brokers (not necessarily the civilian government) in Pakistan.

    I'm not offering a solution, only suggesting we're focusing a lot of effort on the wrong problem, which will likely be a waste of national treasure when we finally realize it isn't working. If we can't address the real problem because the risk versus gain isn't worth it, then maybe pulling out (with several caveats) is the right course of action, but that is a hard and painful decision to make since we have committed so much to date. Pride influences our decisions more than facts, so whatever the new course of action is it will need to address both the facts and our national pride.
    Last edited by Bill Moore; 08-14-2011 at 11:52 PM.

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    Council Member Pete's Avatar
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    In 1995 our Civil War Roundtable in Frederick, Maryland heard a presentation on W.T. Sherman and the Law of Land Warfare. The guy who gave the lecture was a JAG O-5 from HQDA who was wearing his dress greens when he spoke to us. He said he was from South Carolina or Georgia and that he had spent much of his JAG career working with Special Forces.

    He told us he had given many talks to foreign officers and NCOs on the Law of Land Warfare when he accompanied SF training teams overseas, adding that most foreign military personnel had expressed admiration for how the U.S. armed forces play by the rules, Then he said there was a notable exception to that reputation in American military history, the case of William T. Sherman.

    “Does this look like a crazy man or not?” he asked, flashing a photo of Sherman on the screen. From there it was all downhill, a sordid tale of rapine, pillage and plunder. It made the guy’s wearing of dress greens a bit unseemly to say the least. It made one wonder whether the lecture was the official position Of the U.S. Army.

    Grant’s instructions to Sheridan on how to scorch the Shenandoah Valley in 1864-65 and Sheridan’s guidance to his army implenting it are in about the same league as Sherman. The idea was to make the Valley inhospitable to Jubal Early & Co. and to destroy the "Granary of the Confederacy."

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    Default LOL, reminds me of the old John Ford classic Rio Grande.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Grant’s instructions to Sheridan on how to scorch the Shenandoah Valley in 1864-65 and Sheridan’s guidance to his army implenting it are in about the same league as Sherman. The idea was to make the Valley inhospitable to Jubal Early & Co. and to destroy the "Granary of the Confederacy."
    IIRC, The Duke and Sergeant-Major Quinncannon (Victor McLaglen) had rode down the Shenandoah together and burned The Duke's wife's plantation. Maureen O'Hara's character was holding a bit of a grudge about that.
    "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper

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    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    As Lincoln said when Grant laid out his plan, "Those not skinning can hold a leg."

    While the majority position is that Meade was the one skinning and Sherman one of several "holding a leg" I suspect that it might well have been the other way around. That Sherman, the most trusted Lieutenant with the most trusted Army was the one skinning (“You I propose to move against Johnston’s army, to break it up, and to get into the interior of the enemy’s country as far as you can, inflicting all the damage you can against their war resources.")

    And it was the less trusted Meade and Army of the Potomac, closely supervised by Grant personally, (“Lee’s army is your objective point. Wherever Lee goes, there you will go also.” ) that was holding a leg.

    Defeating Lee's army was an essential task; but the most critical task was arguably Sherman's to execute. I think this is one reason why to this day it is also the most controversial aspect of that long and bloody war. I think Southerners understand inherently that it was not the capture of Richmand or the defeat and subsequent surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia that defeated them, it was the hard, cold realization of Sherman's march that "The South" as a whole was defeated as well.

    When an undefeated Germany Army marched home to an undefeated German populace at the end of WWI I suspect that both Grant and Lincoln would have offered that "this isn't over yet..."
    Robert C. Jones
    Intellectus Supra Scientia
    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

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    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Sherman new Strategy=Targeting and to do it right you need a map of the System. He had special Tax map made of Georgia showing the Richest people and the richest counties in Geogia and then in proper Military fashion Uncle Billy made em howl!!

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    Council Member Pete's Avatar
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    Default Ethical Dilemmas

    I imagine that the French and Indian War presented a lot of moral dilemmas for those who wanted to adhere to the so-called "Usages of War" that were generally accepted in Western Europe at the time. They were for organized armies fighting on the plains of Flanders, dress-right-dress and close it up, dress and cover. Wilderness fighting in America between two races was much more vicious and unforgiving.

    During that war Col. Washington had to send a platoon up from his 1st Virginia Regiment to investigate the massacre of a family in the village where I live. The family was dead and just like in Vietnam the wily VC had once again gotten away. On the tactical level war in the raw leads men to do what works, not what abstract moral codes tell them to do. Some things are beyond the pale -- death camps and massacres -- but I imagine battlefield situations challenge accepted notions of right and wrong.

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    Council Member Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    From there it was all downhill, a sordid tale of rapine, pillage and plunder.
    When I attended Fort Benning OCS in 1977 one of the instructors who spoke to us in Infantry Hall had a humorous Vu-Graph slide about the ideal TO&E for an Infantry division. He pointed out the little box on the organizational chart showing the authorized personnel and equipment for the Rape, Pillage and Plunder Section -- one Major, one Master Sergeant, and one Truck, Utility, Utility, One-Quarter Ton, 4x4, M151A1, with Equipment.
    Last edited by Pete; 08-20-2011 at 04:56 PM. Reason: Correcting official nomenclature.

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    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    Default Maybe it’s all just a matter of perspective.

    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

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    Default Lincoln's Code: The Laws of War in American History

    by John Fabian Witt (Amazon; used hardcover, like new, under $3 + $4 ship).

    Snips from Lawfare book review by Steve Neff:

    Of all the images that George Washington conjures up in the minds of Americans, surely that of war criminal must be the least likely. Yet this remarkable book begins with an account of charges levelled against Washington as a result of conduct in the French and Indian Wars in 1754. Specifically, the allegation was complicity on Washington’s part in the killing of a non-combatant in the course of an attack on a French detachment – a charge that Washington even admitted to (although he soon contended that the admission was inadvertent). In his later career as the leader of the American Revolutionary armies, Washington would take scrupulous care to become, in Professor Witt’s words, “the living embodiment of the Enlightenment way of war.”

    The book proceeds to treat the way in which that Enlightenment way of war, as expounded most famously by the Swiss writer Emmerich de Vattel in 1758, evolved over the period from the late Eighteenth Century to the First World War. The book’s title therefore rather understates the range of material covered, since the Civil War section is only the middle part of three, comprising about half the book. It is a fascinating story, told with style and a steadily critical eye.

    Detailed attention is especially given to two vital issues that presented themselves with special force in the frontier conditions prevailing in America in the late Eighteenth Century. The first was the presence of slavery, and the many ramifications that it was to have. ... The second problematic issue was unconventional warfare.
    ...
    The challenges posed by unconventional warfare were also constantly at hand. As American settlement expanded relentlessly southward and westward, struggles against Indian tribes became common. And the view was widely held – not least by the redoubtable lawyer-cum-frontier warrior Andrew Jackson – that Indians were not entitled to the benefits of the Enlightenment way of war, since they refused to abide by its constraints. Jackson, as so often, proved as good (or bad) as his word. Where he encountered serious political trouble, though, was not in his treatment of Indians, but in his robust handling of two British nationals accused of inciting and aiding Indian enemies during Jackson’s Florida campaign. They were tried by a hastily organized military commission, found guilty, and executed in 1818.

    Unconventional warfare also became an important, and highly troublesome, feature of the Mexican War of 1846-48, as Mexico began to rely on guerrilla forces in the wake of the repeated defeats of its conventional armies in the field. In response, General Winfield Scott made the first systematic use in American history of military commissions (or “councils of war,” as they were called) to try captured enemy troops for violations of the laws of war – and also to deny combatant status to guerrilla fighters.

    In the Civil War, guerrilla warfare again became a feature of the hostilities, alongside familiar conventional clashes between regular armies. In this conflict, Francis Lieber, a German immigrant political scientist and international lawyer, made his famous contribution in the form of the Lieber Code. But he also made a less known, and highly important, second contribution to the Union cause: the exposition of the law on unconventional warfare. ...
    ...
    If the Civil War finally ended the slavery issue, the problem of unconventional warfare continued to be very much alive, first on the western frontier in North America, and then in the Philippines in the years following the Spanish-American War of 1898. In these situations, the problem, in Witt’s view, is that the sense of the overwhelming justice of the Union cause in the Civil War – i.e., the extirpation of slavery – was no longer present. But the permissive approach to military necessity that suffused the Lieber Code nonetheless remained part of the American approach to the laws of war. In this sense, the longer term legacy of the Lieber Code may well have been more malign than is generally appreciated. The story that Witt tells, in short, is certainly not a triumphalist one.

    Precedents set in the Mexican and Civil Wars continued to be applied in these later conflicts. In the Indian wars, trials by military commission were employed, resulting in death sentences in a number of cases. In the Philippines, the lawfulness of torture for the extraction of key information came to be a highly controversial issue. At least five American soldiers were placed on trial for engaging in the practice. The most notable was Major Edwin F. Glenn, who was also a lawyer. He was convicted, though with only a light sentence imposed. Remarkably, Glenn went later became the chief author of the United States’s manual on the laws of war of 1914, in which heavy reliance was placed on the earlier Lieber Code.
    More in the book review and much more in the almost 600 page book.

    Regards

    Mike

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