Page 12 of 49 FirstFirst ... 2101112131422 ... LastLast
Results 221 to 240 of 978

Thread: The Roles and Weapons with the Squad

  1. #221
    Council Member AlexTX ret's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    49

    Cool Hmmmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by reed11b View Post
    Disagree in a way... IFV's manned by Infantry as an intregal part of the infantry platoon is bad from infantry becouse it creates a huge tax on infantry skills and manpower. IFV's manned by dedicated IFV crewmen, i.e. 19Whatevers, in a dedicated IFV platoon, could be a valuable battlefield support. Still chewing on Ken's dragoon concept as an alternative to my infantry is infantry is infantry theory.
    Reed
    Is your IFV a minitank that carries a section of infantry on the side?

    Is it a battle taxi with support weapons added to it as an upgrade ie. M113A3 ACCV?

    Is it supposed to take the place of larger, greater weapons load and more expensive MBT or is it an addtional asset? Can it be used in the anti-tank Role? Is it easily transportable with a possible reduction in armor?

    Is it meant to operate on its own (or with others of its kind) or must it operate in a mixed weapons force? Is it part of a greater weapons system that does as many of the battlefield tasks as possible ie Stryker with a 90mm gun?

    I'm not asking these as b*llsh*t questions for in many (those that can afford them) countries this is a raging fire storm. The loss of the IFV/APC if loaded is 3 crewman and a section of infantry in one strike. If it's an IFV unloaded, there is the loss of small unit assets. In both cases, if unloaded, there is the psychological loss of all the section's personal assets such as extra clothing and possibly extra ammunition as well.

    The US answered the question with the Stryker which came out of our Iraq experience. But will it work in a bigger more intense battlefield?

    One final question. Where do the vehicle crewmen fit in the command structure? Are they part of the squad/platoon or are they part of the company's assets?

    What is your take in all this?
    Last edited by AlexTX ret; 05-31-2009 at 05:05 PM.
    Alex
    Semper en Excretus

  2. #222
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SOCAL
    Posts
    2,152

    Default

    The US answered the question with the Stryker which came out of our Iraq experience. But will it work in a bigger more intense battlefield?
    Which expoerience was that...OIF, or Op Desert Storm?

    RSTA squadron doctrine was already being published (with Strykers symbolized in the print vice Brads) as late as 2002.

  3. #223
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SOCAL
    Posts
    2,152

    Default

    Wilf wrote: I don't see this at all. I see no interest in developing the Platoon in the US, the UK except via hanging computers off them. Training is everything, and it's not that expensive. I have a personal opinion that we don't do it very well, because we don't seem to see a relationship between what training costs and what performance increase it actually creates.

    If you can't train operationally effective infantrymen in under 6-8 months, you are doing something wrong.
    Often, it isn't that we are doing something wrong, but rather that we cannot control outside influences (base-level working parties anyone?) or constraints.

    A lot of things influence training, and certainly basic precepts of safety worry us the majority of the time to a degree that I think is dangeriously exaggerated. Ask a platoon commander to take his platoon from a cold start and conduct a non-illuminated night attack, and I doubt many could do it without extensive rehearsals beyond what we execute for reasonable safety considerations as a dry run. Why can't he do that you ask, when he is certainly trained in its execution? We tend to get too busy doing a lot of other things that are deemed necessary by folks outside our immediate sphere.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ken White
    .....my combat BAR experience was in the Marines and having three of the monsters with 13 (or more often, 10 ) men made a difference.....

    Rifleman wrote: This seems important to me. My understanding is that the traditional 13-man USMC rifle squad (and the fire team concept as we know it) was built in 1944 to maximize the BAR's strengths. The BAR is what the USMC had to work with and they made the most of it by having three BARs per squad and three Garand riflemen manuvering around and supporting each BAR. I think the USMC squad had one (or two?) more BARs than Army squads of the same era did.

    But could it not be said that the smaller German squad during the same era made best use of what they had to work with: the MG42? My understanding is that the German SOP was to get the gun into action; the Mauser riflemen screened and packed ammo to the gun.

    So might not the AR v. LMG argument hedge on squad size and organization? It just seems to me that larger TOE squads can make best use of the AR and fire teams, but that smaller TOE (plus often being understrength) squads built around an LMG, a grenadier, and a handful of riflemen (and too small for internal fire teams) have been just as successful. Of course that type of squad requires fire and manuever to begin at platoon and not squad level. A smaller squad can usually fire or manuever but usually not both without being reinforced.

    I know I've stated this idea before but it seems worth repeating - especially considering the recent posts. But my experience is peacetime light infantry, not combat, so someone tell me if their combat experience says that I'm way off base here.
    I think you are on to something with this. Considering the derision with which our own infantry seem to view the SAW (just look at how it gets issued to "the boot" when the TO/E calls for the next senior man after the TL), I don't think the Corps will get its head around just how the AR/LMG fits into our tactics because we are for the most part very immature about the concept of employment in the first place. It just seems as though very few officers and senior enlisted have though about the issue in the least.

    We definitely do not organize ourselves to support the SAW-man. He predominantly humps his own ammo, while other team and squad-mates get the burden's share of 60mm ammo and AT-4 rounds, as well as batteries, specialized kits for tacital site exploitation, etc. Heck, it may just be that we simply do not have a large enough loadout of ammo for the SAW-men to make them effective for any duration, thus the heavier reliance on the combined arms concepts of M203 and direct fire employment.

    The SAW is also integral to the movement of the team as a whole, since we preach fire and maneuver down to the squad level, more than we preach establishing a base of fire where the riflemen support the SAWs (we do bases of fire, but just not with the SAWs so prominently figured.

    I have not seen it first-hand, but I know that there is a degradation of lightfighter skills occuring, since nowadays just about every rifleman also has to have an incidental HMMWV license, be qualified in escaping from it while hanging inverted, and has to have (sometimes to the extreme) familiarity with CSWs because we have killed more troops through NDs that we have killed bad guys it seems.

    I started out as a light infantryman and am now in the light armored recce community, where we transport scouts in what could be considered hybrids (certainly considering how we fight them). Our recce/cav doctrine should very clearly delineate who supports whom, when, and where, but in practical application we have some difficulties deciding just what to do.

  4. #224
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    Considering the derision with which our own infantry seem to view the SAW (just look at how it gets issued to "the boot" when the TO/E calls for the next senior man after the TL)...
    Peacetime foolishness (both the TOE design and the boot getting the weapon) and the Squad Leader (and the Platoon Sergeant. Not the PL) is at fault for allowing it, it'll change in a real war when it will go to the guy who can use it best.
    We definitely do not organize ourselves to support the SAW-man. He predominantly humps his own ammo, while other team and squad-mates get the burden's share of 60mm ammo and AT-4 rounds, as well as batteries, specialized kits for tacital site exploitation, etc. Heck, it may just be that we simply do not have a large enough loadout of ammo for the SAW-men to make them effective for any duration, thus the heavier reliance on the combined arms concepts of M203 and direct fire employment.
    FWIW, I think the emphasis is right. HE stuff is better than 5.56 rounds
    (we do bases of fire, but just not with the SAWs so prominently figured.
    That's right IMO, the SAW is just one weapon and is not as likely to keep heads down as accurate fire from the rifles or HE from the 203. Plus, the automatic weapon always draws attention; they should be fired less than they usually are...

  5. #225
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default Neither, really, the Stryker came from

    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    Which expoerience was that...OIF, or Op Desert Storm?

    RSTA squadron doctrine was already being published (with Strykers symbolized in the print vice Brads) as late as 2002.
    pressure on the Army to 'modernize.' They talked about and tested tracks and wheels in 2000-2001 -- came up with tracks are better but there's nothing out there now (then) light enough. Solution: develop lighter tracks (FCS), buy an interim wheeled vehicle. It was acknowledged there were better wheel vehicles available than the Stryker but since this was an interim buy, the decision was made to go with the cheapest wheeled vehicle that had been judge adequate. Or in version 2, one of Shinseki's cronies went to work for General Dynamics which were in process of buying GM Canada, producer of the vehicle under license from Mowag of Switzerland (also later bought by GD...). Take your pick.

    Iraq had nothing to do with the purchase of the Stryker.

  6. #226
    Council Member reed11b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Olympia WA
    Posts
    531

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexTX ret View Post
    Is your IFV a minitank that carries a section of infantry on the side?

    Is it a battle taxi with support weapons added to it as an upgrade ie. M113A3 ACCV?

    Is it supposed to take the place of larger, greater weapons load and more expensive MBT or is it an addtional asset? Can it be used in the anti-tank Role? Is it easily transportable with a possible reduction in armor?

    Is it meant to operate on its own (or with others of its kind) or must it operate in a mixed weapons force? Is it part of a greater weapons system that does as many of the battlefield tasks as possible ie Stryker with a 90mm gun?

    I'm not asking these as b*llsh*t questions for in many (those that can afford them) countries this is a raging fire storm. The loss of the IFV/APC if loaded is 3 crewman and a section of infantry in one strike. If it's an IFV unloaded, there is the loss of small unit assets. In both cases, if unloaded, there is the psychological loss of all the section's personal assets such as extra clothing and possibly extra ammunition as well.

    The US answered the question with the Stryker which came out of our Iraq experience. But will it work in a bigger more intense battlefield?

    One final question. Where do the vehicle crewmen fit in the command structure? Are they part of the squad/platoon or are they part of the company's assets?

    What is your take in all this?
    As far as Squad - Platoon - CO level asset, in my view they should definitely be a CO or Higher level asset and should operate in at least platoon level formations (4-6 vehicles) to allow for independent C&C capabilities. As far as the Psychological impact of "your" gear going boom, that is part of what we do wrong with IFV's. Infantry platoons should take there gear w/ them and whatever is left on the IFV in support should be generic supplies (ammo, food, water, etc.) IFV should not be "assigned” to individual infantry Platoons except for insertion and extraction. They should be able to operate in support or independently of the infantry they support. They are not tanks, and should not have an anti-armor mission except in extreme situations. Of course I am a believer that infantry that supports tanks should be in vehicles with truly tank levels of armor. IFV's should be generalist fighting support vehicles capable of quickly moving infantry and supporting them by fire, advanced c3 and RSTA capabilities, and resupply. They should operate in platoon size elements Unfortunately this is not how any military that I know uses or organizes them so proving my concept would be difficult to say the least.
    Reed
    Last edited by reed11b; 06-01-2009 at 12:00 AM. Reason: operator head space and timing
    Quote Originally Posted by sapperfitz82 View Post
    This truly is the bike helmet generation.

  7. #227
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
    Posts
    3,947

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    I don't think the Corps will get its head around just how the AR/LMG fits into our tactics because we are for the most part very immature about the concept of employment in the first place. It just seems as though very few officers and senior enlisted have though about the issue in the least.
    If this is true, and I am not doubting you, it would strongly suggest that the USMC has no clear idea as the relative effects and benefits of the weapons in the platoon. The UK certainly has the same problem, because it has focussed on loading up 3 sections, with identical fire teams, and wants to treat the "section as a platform."

    This problem will persist as long as we train folks "how do things" and not "why to do things."
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  8. #228
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SOCAL
    Posts
    2,152

    Default

    If this is true, and I am not doubting you, it would strongly suggest that the USMC has no clear idea as the relative effects and benefits of the weapons in the platoon.
    I'm not sure that it is necessarily such a bad thing, except when it comes time to look for a candidate to replace the SAW, hence the LMG vs. AR debate, which often gets mired down solely in issues of weight, caliber, range, etc., and not a question of effects desired.

    I invited CWO4 Eby to check out some of the trigger puller threads, as he has written the most of late about rifle grenade, buddy tactics, and the search for a new SAW/AR in the Marine Corps Gazette. Sadly, he either could not, or chose not to, come.

  9. #229
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
    Posts
    3,947

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    I invited CWO4 Eby to check out some of the trigger puller threads, as he has written the most of late about rifle grenade, buddy tactics, and the search for a new SAW/AR in the Marine Corps Gazette. Sadly, he either could not, or chose not to, come.
    I've read a lot of Eby's stuff. Now I don't like the SAW, but I don't see the LAR as a one for one replacement. A lot of the testing described in his articles is not the effort I would have supported.
    Unless you can actually measure the "effectiveness" of an M4 v M16A4 v M249 v X-LAR, then you have a debate populated by opinion and war stories, and not something most of us could take seriously.
    All my evidence (and that includes some opinion) is that is it not about weapons. Sighting systems and other ancillaries seem to be far more potent, and efficient than merely fixating on what equipment best turns 5.56mm into empty cases.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  10. #230
    Council Member wm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    On the Lunatic Fringe
    Posts
    1,237

    Default A new study on squad sizes

    Here is a note from DoD Defense Link to consider--11 Man squads?

    WASHINGTON, June 11, 2009 – The U.S. military is studying how to improve smaller-unit capabilities to better confront enemies who practice irregular or conventional warfare, or both, a senior U.S. military officer said here today.
    The studies are part of U.S. Joint Forces Command’s National Program for Small Unit Excellence initiative, Army Maj. Gen. Jason K. Kamiya, chief of the Norfolk, Va.,-based command’s joint training directorate, and the commander of its Joint Warfighting Center, told reporters at a Pentagon roundtable meeting.

    Senior U.S. military leaders believe that highly trained, smaller units would be better able to battle future foes that practice irregular warfare, Kamiya said, as well as enemies that wage hybrid warfare, a combination of irregular and conventional warfare.

    An example of such squad-sized “super” units can be found in the special operations realm, Kamiya said, where the diverse and honed talents and capabilities of 11-member teams make them more powerful than some larger, conventional military units.
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
    The greatest educational dogma is also its greatest fallacy: the belief that what must be learned can necessarily be taught. — Sydney J. Harris

  11. #231
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    499

    Default Everything old is new again?

    Actually, the article made it sound like is wasn't so much about increasing the size of the rifle squad as it was about subdividing light infantry units into something akin to SF ODAs. At least that was my take on it.

    Don't know if that's a good idea. Others more experienced than me can comment on that.
    "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper

  12. #232
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
    Posts
    3,947

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wm View Post
    Here is a note from DoD Defense Link to consider--11 Man squads?
    Stupidest thing I have read in a long time. 9,11 or 12 man squad will make, and can make NO difference. Maybe those guys should come read these threads.

    It's not the squad. It's the platoon. What works for combat operations, works for security operations.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  13. #233
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    3,189

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    It's not the squad. It's the platoon.
    Unless a platoon is the sum of multiple identical squads. That would trivialize the difference that you see.
    The platoon is the sum of multiple identical (TO&E) squads in many if not most countries...


    Another problem is the limitation that the independent employment of a platoon sets on its stealth. A squad or a smaller team can remain undetected or at least thwart tracking efforts much easier than a platoon.
    A platoon hasn't much superior capability to call for indirect fires in comparison to even a two-man sniper team.
    The use of directional fragmentation mines for an ambush is also pretty much a fixed size and doesn't vary much with friendly head count beyond the first squad.
    Armies that focus on indirect fires (or ambushes) in their infantry tactics will find the squad organization more important than platoon organization - because a platoon would often just be 2/3 excess fat.

    I think you rest your platoon emphasis a lot and probably too much on thinking about platoon assaults. The advantageous differentiation between assault and suppressive fire elements in a platoon looks very much like an exception that's limited to assaults.

    The use of identical squad TO&E would instead lead to squad-centric thinking.

  14. #234
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
    Posts
    3,947

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    I think you rest your platoon emphasis a lot and probably too much on thinking about platoon assaults. The advantageous differentiation between assault and suppressive fire elements in a platoon looks very much like an exception that's limited to assaults.
    Absolutely not.

    My thinking for platoons focusses on generating patrol multiples. That is relevant, regardless of the conflict, terrain, or threat. Supporting and sustaining dismounted operation, regardless of numbers or weapons types, is something that has to focus thinking on the platoon level.

    The fixation on squad size has proven worthless. We need to move beyond it.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  15. #235
    Council Member reed11b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Olympia WA
    Posts
    531

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    Unless a platoon is the sum of multiple identical squads. That would trivialize the difference that you see.
    The platoon is the sum of multiple identical (TO&E) squads in many if not most countries...
    Acttualy it is the sum of multiple, not always identical SECTIONS in most countries. the fireteam/squad dynamic a fairly recent additional layer of command unique to infantry. Better training would easily eliminate the need for it
    Reed
    Quote Originally Posted by sapperfitz82 View Post
    This truly is the bike helmet generation.

  16. #236
    Council Member ODB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    278

    Default Posted elsewhere.

    Many dicussions throughout the SWJ revolve around weapons. Everyone talks about the ideal round, ideal lethality, ideal caliber, firing rates, etc..... Finally someone brought up one of my biggest pet peeves (Thanks Coldstreamer). POSITIVE ID. At what distance with the naked eye can a soldier positively ID (PID) his threat in any environment? Yes, the environment makes a difference and I know all the associated factors. For arguements sake let's say open desert:

    1. In local attire carrying an AK or RPG?

    2. In local attire hiding an AK or RPG under his clothes?

    3. In military uniform carrying an AK or RPG?

    4. In military uniform with no weapon visable?

    Aditionally lets use the same constraints with common current optics found within our force.

    1. ACOG 4x power

    2. M68 or EOTECH 0x power

    3. Binos (showing my age by allowing the old M22) 7x50

    4. Thermals (lightweight)

    5. ELCAN M145 3.4x power

    Staying in the daylight only realm, night becomes a completely different story.

    I'm not talking capabilities with sniper teams and other specialties. Most discussions center around the "force" in general.

    Additionally this changes based on the fight your in. Yes one can PID someone shooting from a much further distance or can they?

    Based on being able to PID your target then what becomes the ideal weapon systems?

    As far as anything 25mm, 40 mm or whatever the hell the next great idea fairy dreams up, maybe they should look at an effective way to train Soldiers on the weapon system. M203/M79 (yes they are still around) is the most underutilized weapon in the inventory. No one gets ammo to train with it and since this has been the case for too many years no one knows how to use it. I love seeing the deer in the headlight look when I ask why they do not have "hold off" markings taped onto their sling. Before we keep throwing new weapons, ammo, technology at the "force", we need to be able to ensure it can be effectively trained and therefore utilized to it's full capability.
    ODB

    Exchange with an Iraqi soldier during FID:

    Why did you not clear your corner?

    Because we are on a base and it is secure.

  17. #237
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SOCAL
    Posts
    2,152

    Default

    Using the lower end ACOG and ELCAN, I can do all four of those PID tasks at ~700 meters. Being able to engage said tgts is of course a different story.

    I agree 110% that sometimes, we merely need to be better with what we already have.

  18. #238
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SOCAL
    Posts
    2,152

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    I've read a lot of Eby's stuff. Now I don't like the SAW, but I don't see the LAR as a one for one replacement. A lot of the testing described in his articles is not the effort I would have supported.
    Unless you can actually measure the "effectiveness" of an M4 v M16A4 v M249 v X-LAR, then you have a debate populated by opinion and war stories, and not something most of us could take seriously.
    All my evidence (and that includes some opinion) is that is it not about weapons. Sighting systems and other ancillaries seem to be far more potent, and efficient than merely fixating on what equipment best turns 5.56mm into empty cases.
    Eby wrote an article that described a significan bit of testing and experimentation between the SAW, Ultimax, HK candidate, and Colt HBAR candidates. The last few paragraphs are indicative of why the effort continues.

    Despite the small margin of accuracy between the replacement candidates and the SAW that would otherwise mean a replacement is not necessary, the SAW still does not provide the requisite mobility and ability to fire in a semi-automatic mode.

    The testing also identified that optics, and often a spotter of some sorts, matter.

    The original material came out of a Marine Corps Gazette article that I found published elsewhere.

    ---------------------

    Automatic Rifle Concept: Part I—History and Empirical Testing

    by CWO3 Jeffrey L. Eby

    ‘Those German units fortunate enough to have officers who understood the effect of modern firepower went into battle in dispersed skirmish lines, with as many as six meters between each man and with each man granted the freedom to make use of whatever cover was available during his forward movement.’1

    —Bruce Gudmundsson
    Stormtroop Tactics

    The relationship between the lethality of weapons and the dispersion of the troops found on the same battlefield has been a consideration for commanders since man first engaged in combat. From the Spartan phalanx to German stormtroop operations, combat leaders have been forced to adjust their tactics to the technology of the day. The dispersion of the troops has always been a critical aspect of the tactics employed. As the lethality of weapons has increased so has the dispersion necessary to preserve combat power.

    History
    Throughout history, advances in technology have driven tactical changes. As smaller units of combatants have gained greater firepower, dispersion has become a critical function of survivability on the battlefield. Dispersion is not merely a function of physical distance between elements but also incorporates the elements of mobility, command, and control. One end of the spectrum of dispersion is a massed armed force in physical contact, slow to move, and under the direct observation and control of its senior leader. The opposite end of the spectrum is a force of individual skirmishers moving quickly and guided only by a general intent. Commanders have continually adjusted the deployment of their forces in order to most effectively bring fire to bear on the enemy while simultaneously attempting to minimize the effects of enemy fire on their own forces.

    The combatants of World War I learned a number of lessons as they attempted to resolve how to increase dispersion in the face of increased firepower, while still maintaining some type of control over their squads and platoons. By increasing the training standards of the individual soldier they hoped to enable themselves to decentralize command and increase dispersion.2 Better trained soldiers could operate more effectively without direct supervision.

    Realizing that coordinated rushes drew fire, soldiers began advancing using stealth, microterrain, and individual rushes.3 The development of a light machinegun and trench mortar—fielded at the squad level—increased the unit’s firepower without having to resort to linear formations of riflemen.4 Without the need to “build up the skirmish line,” squads could maneuver freely, furthering dispersion while maintaining offensive momentum.5

    By the beginning of World War II almost all combatants possessed squad organizations built around light machineguns and automatic rifles (ARs). Armies fielded units capable of the dispersion necessary to survive and operate on this new, more expansive battlefield in both offensive and defensive operations.

    As World War II progressed, American Army and Marine Corps squads focused on gaining further firepower that improved their survivability and allowed for further dispersion and movement. Army experiences in the bocage country of Normandy and the woods of the Huertgen forest led to two and even three Browning ARs (BARs) at the squad level. The American “light” machinegun—a water-cooled, .30 caliber model—could not be used in the assault due to its weight.6

    The Marine Corps developed the fire team concept. As early as the Corps’ Nicaragua experience, Marines recognized the need for a squad-level automatic weapon.7 Through World War I and into the Pacific campaigns of World War II, Marine Corps squad development continually evolved toward smaller maneuver elements, each armed with an AR. In keeping with the “triangle” concept, the Corps finished World War II with the 3 fire team, 13-man squad still utilized today.8

    By Vietnam the Marine Corps rifle squad lost the BAR as an AR largely due to logistical, vice tactical, concerns.9 Attempts to replace the BAR with a modified M14, a never fielded M15, or the M60 medium machinegun proved to be failures.10

    After the Vietnam War the Marine Corps led development of the M16A2 to replace the M16A1. However, with the loss of the M16A1’s full automatic capability, even the fiction of an AR at the fire team and squad level disappeared.11 As the M16A2 was fielded the Marine Corps searched for an available weapons system to fill in the AR void. While some testing apparently occurred, the vagaries of the contracting system and the urgency of fielding demands led to the selection of the FN Minimi light machinegun—the M249 squad automatic weapon (and the introduction of the term “SAW” to the Marine Corps lexicon).12

    The Assessment
    The relationship between lethality and dispersion has recently come under scrutiny in the context of a debate over the role of the M249 SAW within the Marine rifle squad and the need for a true automatic weapon in the infantry. Two articles will discuss the role of the M249 SAW, the need for a true automatic weapon in the infantry, and the constrained reorganization of the infantry company to best utilize the strengths of organic weapons systems. This article will address the relationship between lethality and dispersion, examine the historical background of the AR, and provide the results of a 1st Marine Division (1st MarDiv) sponsored assessment of three ARs and the M249 SAW.


    In May 2001 the 1st MarDiv commissioned a study tasking 2d Battalion, 7th Marines to execute a quantitative and qualitative assessment of several AR candidates alongside the M249 SAW. The objective of this assessment was twofold:


    • Determine if the AR is more effective than the SAW in an operational environment during day, low-light, and night in selected offensive and defensive operations.

    • Evaluate the SAW through organizational change by considering constrained reorganization that will experiment with a SAW consolidation within the infantry squad and platoon.

    Once the quantitative results were obtained (detailed results are included in this article), the battalion attempted to answer the following two questions:
    Last edited by jcustis; 06-14-2009 at 05:06 AM.

  19. #239
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SOCAL
    Posts
    2,152

    Default

    • Will the inclusion of the AR in the infantry squad and the consolidation of the SAW at the squad level enhance the effectiveness of the platoon?

    • Will the inclusion of the AR in the infantry squad and the consolidation of the SAW at the platoon level enhance the effectiveness of the company?

    In attempting to answer the two questions above, several other questions were generated that created more debate on the utility of the SAW and its role in the battalion and the role of the AR in the fire team. The debate centered on the following:

    • Should the M249 be replaced outright or have its role tailored to meet its capabilities (light machinegun or AR)?

    • Can the historical progression of increased lethality be forwarded and, if so, how?

    • How or should the Marine Corps rifle squad and platoon be organized to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses of the SAW, increase dispersion in the face of the new lethality that might be developed with more automatic weapons in the rifle squads, and take advantage of new technologies?

    Before the assessment began the following generally held weapons definitions were adopted. A machinegun is a weapon possessing interchangeable barrels in order to allow continuous high-volume fires. The high volumes are achieved by using belt-fed ammunition. The machinegun will have an effective range beyond that of rifles as impacts of rounds can be directed onto targets by other members of the machinegun team.


    An AR will be designed around the battle rifle of the infantry (currently the M16A2) but may come with a heavy barrel to retard heat buildup. It will be magazine fed and possess the capacity to be employed in a fully automatic role. The effective range of the AR should be comparable to the rifle. According to Chuck Taylor, author of The Fighting Rifle:

    The automatic rifle is a small arm intended for short-term automatic fire missions against point targets. It is incapable of sustained automatic fire due to the lack of a quick-change barrel, which in turn, causes overheating, and the removal of the weapon from serviceable status. The AR is also fed from a detachable box magazine, not a belt, as is a true machine gun. Automatic rifles are NOT machine guns!13

    An AR should be employed by an individual shooter and used in close combat. The AR, with its lower rate of fire, buffer spring, and greatly reduced recoil, gives added advantage of accuracy and shooter endurance. Unlike a light machinegun, an AR is designed to engage point or small area targets. It is intended to be a “mobile base of fire” around which the fire team maneuvers. The AR provides the maneuver element itself with an organic, moving volume of fire in the attack.

    Only infantry could gain ground. To make possible the advance of infantry in such circumstances required that some weapon, dominant in its firepower, readily mobile, extremely accurate at short range, capable of being handled by one man and easily concealed, should be available to fill in the gap between the lifting of the artillery barrage and the moment at which the arme blanche could be used.14

    Based on the generally held weapons definitions adopted, three ARs were acquired off-the-shelf to participate in the assessment with the M249 SAW. These three weapons were the Colt AR, the Ultimax 100 (manufactured by Singapore Arms), and the Heckler & Koch (HK) G36.

    The Weapons
    The Colt is a variant of the current M16A2 with the exact same sights and commonality of parts. The Colt AR weighs 15 pounds—8 more pounds than the M16A2. The additional weight is due primarily to a heavy barrel intended to retard heat buildup. Other alterations include a pistol grip attached to the fore end, a hydraulic buffer to retard recoil and rise, and a design change enabling the automatic variant to fire from the open bolt, reducing the possibility of cookoffs from excessive heat buildup. The Colt has a rate of fire of 650 rounds per minute.

    The Ultimax 100 is similar in look to the M249 SAW. Like the SAW it fires from the open bolt but does not possess a spare barrel and is fed by magazine only. Because it weighs only 9 pounds, s******* can easily employ the Ultimax in a variety of methods. An adjustable gas regulator with 3 settings allows for a rate of fire varying from 450 to 600 rounds per minute.

    The HK is a lightweight rifle capable of being fired in a fully automatic role from the closed bolt. The version tested had optical sights with an over/under system. The lower sight system has a 3.5 magnified scope with multiple crosshairs. The upper system was an aim point dot variation for limited visibility shooting. Total weight of the weapons system tested was 7 pounds. The rate of fire is 650 rounds per minute.

    Testing
    Phase I began 21 July 2001 with the receipt of the test bed of ARs. Forty-eight Marines en route to the battalion from their recent graduation at the School of Infantry were selected as the test bed s******* in order to eliminate as much preexisting bias concerning the SAW as possible. The tradeoff for using new Marines was a lack of marksmanship understanding and a failure to grasp open-bolt firing concepts. The 48 Marines were divided into four 12-man squads labeled A, B, C, and D. Marines in each squad were then numbered 1 through 12. Each squad was armed with one of the four weapons systems (Colt, HK, Ultimax, and SAW). Each weapon was then zeroed to the individual shooter. Once a weapon was zeroed to a specific Marine, the other three Marines in his number series would shoot for an offset aim point; i.e., shooter A1 zeroed the SAW and then s******* B1, C1, and D1 used offset aim points for the SAW. All number one s******* would shoot all four of the number one weapons on each test. This allowed a much quicker transition from weapon to weapon throughout the test.

    Class SAW Colt Ultimax HK
    1st 2 7 1 2
    2d 8 19 10 6
    3d 19 12 12 7
    4th 19 10 25 33

    Table 1. Test 1 results.
    Eight separate tests were designed to assess the accuracy of the three AR candidates and the SAW in various operational situations. The main focus of these tests was to determine if the ARs were more accurate than the SAW in various attitudes, ranges, and conditions.

    Test 1 was the M249 SAW paper qualification course fired from 36 yards. The purpose of this test was to use the M249’s strongest event to establish a baseline for comparison. The other weapons would compete against the SAW in its most favored environment. The most accurate weapon for this event was the Colt and the least accurate the HK. Table 1 shows that s******* using the Colt qualified in the first or second class two and a half times higher than s******* using the other weapons.

    Test 2 was a quick-kill course established at Range 105A. S******* engaged three targets from the standing, kneeling, and prone positions with nine rounds in a time frame of 20 seconds. A target hit was valued at 1; a miss was valued at 0. The quick-kill targets were established at ranges of 25, 50, and 100 yards. The purpose of Test 2 was to determine the accuracy of the weapons in the critical, last 100 yards of an assault. The Marines used all of the field firing positions to duplicate the firing methods of combat Marines in urban or jungle warfare. Table 2 shows the results of Test 2.


    25 Yards 50 Yards 100 Yards
    Weapon Hits Rounds Accuracy Weapon Hits Rounds Accuracy Weapon Hits Rounds Accuracy
    SAW 130 432 30.09% SAW 119 432 27.55% SAW 100 432 23.15%
    Colt 161 432 37.27% Colt 161 432 29.86% Colt 176 432 40.74%
    Ultimax 130 432 30.09% Ultimax 130 432 24.54% Ultimax 131 432 30.32%
    HK 139 432 32.18% HK 139 432 28.94% HK 120 432 27.77%


    Table 2. Test 2 results.
    Figure 1. Extracted Table I from FM 23–9.
    RD Range (M) Time (Sec) RD Range (M) Time (Sec)
    1 50 3 11 100 8
    2 200 6 12 200
    3 100 4 13 150 10
    4 150 5 14 300
    5 300 6 15 100 9
    6 250 7 16 250
    7 50 3 17 200 6
    8 200 6 18 150 5
    9 150 5 19 50 6
    10 250 7 20 100

    Weapon Hits Rounds Saved Rounds Accuracy
    SAW 231 1920 1 12.04%
    Colt 427 1920 64 23.00%
    Ultimax 368 1920 69 19.88%
    HK 386 1920 173 22.10%

    Table 3. Test 3 results.

    Figure 2.
    Task Range (M) Time (Sec) Rounds
    1 200 5 6
    2 300 10 6
    3 100 10 6
    4 300 15 6
    5 100, 300 20 12
    6 200, 300 20 12
    7 100, 200, 300 25 18

    Weapon Hits Rounds Saved Rounds Accuracy
    SAW 279 3168 327 09.82%
    Colt 384 3168 580 14.84%
    Ultimax 323 3168 642 12.79%
    HK 330 3168 338 11.66%

    Table 4. Test 4 results.

    Figure 3.
    RD Range (M) Time (Sec) RD Range (M) Time (Sec)
    1 250 10 11 400 10
    2 400 10 12 500
    3 800 15 13 700 20
    4 300 10 14 300
    5 500 10 15 800 20
    6 700 15 16 400
    7 300 10 17 600 20
    8 400 10 18 800
    9 600 15 17 300 10
    10 800 15 20 500 10
    Weapons Hits Rounds Saved Rounds Accuracy
    SAW 148 4800 0 3.08%
    Colt 219 4800 290 4.86%
    Ultimax 216 4800 280 4.78%
    HK 151 4800 243 3.31%

  20. #240
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SOCAL
    Posts
    2,152

    Default

    Table 5. Test 5 results.

    Standing results without masks Standing results with mask
    Weapon Accuracy Time (Sec) Weapon Accuracy Time (Sec)
    SAW 4.73% 1132 SAW 6.12& 1013
    Colt 10.70% 1355 Colt 9.18% 1138
    Ultimax 9.80% 1272 Ultimax 8.64% 1300
    HK 13.51%
    1621 HK 10.99% 1926

    Table 6. Test 6 results.

    Kneeling results without masks Kneeling results with mask
    SAW 3.85% 1116 SAW 5.40% 1131
    Colt 8.24% 1309 Colt 10.63% 1304
    Ultimax 10.70% 1410 Ultimax 9.00% 1459
    HK 11.22% 1490 HK 14.59% 1753

    Table 7. Test 7 results.

    Task Range (M) Time (Sec) RD
    1 200 5 6
    2 300 10 6
    3 100 10 6
    4 300 15 6
    5 100,300 20 12
    6 200,300 20 12
    7 100,200,300 25 18

    Figure 4.

    Weapon Hits Rounds Saved Rounds Accuracy
    SAW 43 3102 728 1.81%
    Colt 50 3102 526 1.94%
    Ultimax Not available for this event.
    HK 88 3102 641 3.58%

    Table 8. Test 8 results.

    During Test 2 minor issues developed with each of the weapons systems. S******* repeatedly had negligent discharges with the Colt, attributable to the Marines forgetting the difference between the closed-bolt M16A2 and the open-bolt AR. The young Marines kept riding the bolt home on a live round, thereby firing the round. With the Ultimax, the s******* realized that the sights were set too low in the rear. Once they achieved stock weld the sights proved to be lower than the eye could see, forcing stock weld to be broken and causing the shooter to search for the sights. With the HK the 3.5 power magnification proved too much at 25 and 50 yards but beneficial at 100 yards. Overmagnification at shorter ranges slowed down the presentation of the weapon onto the target. For the M249 SAW, the weight and length in general made this an extremely cumbersome weapon in field firing positions. Another problem resulted from the commonality of the Colt AR and the M16A2. The familiarity led to initial accuracy, as the young Marines had not yet become familiar with the other weapons.

    Test 3 was fired from the prone position, using bipods for stability, engaging popup targets ranging in distance from 50 to 300 meters, with a varied time limit (See Table 3.) A 20-target exposure using 40 rounds was fired from Field Manual 23–9 (FM 23–9), M16A1 and M16A2 Rifle Marksmanship Table I. (See Figure 1.) This evaluation determined quick reaction from a defensive position to an attacking enemy.

    Test 4 occurred on the same range as Test 3, firing Table II of FM 23–14, M249 Light Machinegun in the Automatic Rifle Role (see Figure 2), the SAW transition course of fire. A shooter in the prone position with 66 rounds engaged popup targets ranging in distance from 100 to 300 meters with a varied time limit. (See Table 4.) This test again gave the M249 the benefit of the doubt by firing a course of fire designed for the light machinegun. However, the only weapon that could qualify as a light machinegun, the M249 SAW, posted the worst results.

    Test 5 was fired using long-range popup targets without team leader assistance. Targets ranged from 250 to 800 meters. (See Figure 3.) Testing employed a 20-target exposure firing 100 rounds per weapon from a supported prone position with varied time exposures. (See Table 5.)

    The results from Test 5 identified difficulties for a single shooter to engage targets beyond 300 meters. To effectively and accurately engage targets at these ranges, weapons systems need to be operated by a team, fired from a tripod, and assisted by team leaders using magnified optics.

    Tests 6 and 7 (see Tables 6 and 7 for test results) consisted of field firing at elevated targets (simulating urban patrol engagements) placed at distances of 100 to 150 meters. The targets were automated, three-dimensional “Ivan” popup targets. A 5-target exposure was used and engaged with 15 rounds with no time limit, but total time for each shooter was recorded. S******* fired from standing and kneeling positions with and without the field protective mask.

    Test 8 consisted of night fire on an automated range with targets arrayed from 75 to 300 meters. (See Figure 4.) Ambient light was less than 20 percent. All weapons were zeroed with PEQ–2s using the laser bore light prior to the range. (See Table 8.) The Ultimax 100 was not tested because there was no way to mount the PEQ–2 to the weapon.

    The final evaluation of the assessment was aimed at capturing intangible characteristics and qualities of the weapons that numeric data could not capture. Marines involved in the test filled out a shooter evaluation questionnaire that attempted to capture the intangibles of each weapon. The comparison of these questionnaires with actual range performance produced some interesting results. On average, during Tests 1 through 4 the 48 s******* preferred the weapons in the following order: Ultimax 100, HK, Colt, and M249 SAW. The questions on the questionnaire focused on nine areas: (1) overall performance, (2) using system sights, (3) detecting and identifying targets, (4) adjusting windage, (5) adjusting elevation, (6) adjusting weapons zero, (7) maintaining zero, ( malfunctions, and (9) stoppages. Even though the Colt fired the most accurately in most stages, it was next to last in shooter preference.

    Recommendations for modifications were requested for each of the weapons systems. The M249 and Colt were viewed as too heavy. The HK failed to stay on target in burst fire while the Ultimax sight system did not present to the eye at all. When the shooter laid his cheek on the stock of the weapon and achieved a proper stock weld he found the sights of the weapon lay below the line of sight capability of his eye. Accuracy—although according to raw data better than the current M249 SAW in every test—was of such a limited amount as to be statistically insignificant. Only on Test 3 did any weapon outperform the SAW by more than 10 percent accuracy.

    “Automatic fire is inherently less accurate than semiautomatic fire.”15 The difficulty becomes achieving a balance between weapons that provide a combination of the accuracy of semiautomatic fire while maintaining the ability to employ full automatic fire when required. This is the reason the Marine Corps modified its BARs so they could fire semiautomatically—to provide both capabilities.

    Infantrymen feel strongly about replacing the M249 SAW with a true AR inside the fire team but feel just as strongly about keeping the M249 SAW for its automatic fire suppressive capability. Given the results of this assessment, accuracy alone is not a strong enough reason to replace the M249 SAW. However, most would argue that accuracy was never the problem with the M249 SAW. The problem with the M249 SAW was the lack of mobility when manned by an individual while attempting to move at the pace of a rifle team.

    The M249 SAW provides the accuracy that fire teams and squads require. The quantitative tests of Phase I proved the variation in accuracy between the M249 SAW and its competitors small enough to not be worth the time, money, and effort to replace it. Despite the mitigation of the accuracy issue, the M249 SAW could not meet the requirements of mobility and semiautomatic fire accuracy.

    Unfortunately, the competitors tested during Phase I of the AR assessment do not appear to offer what the Marine Corps needs. As stated previously, the HK failed to stay on target in burst fire while the Ultimax sight system did not present to the eye at all. The commonality of the Colt AR with the M16A2 appeared to be advantageous. Yet the Colt proved to be the only weapon that experienced negligent discharges during the firing of 120,000 rounds. This fault resulted, in part, from young Marines failing to understand the open-bolt system but also, in part, from weapon design. Open bolts are inherently dangerous. Traditionally, we fear carrying an open-bolt weapon in the condition one mode of ready to fire. The primary shooter can be trained to be safe with the weapon, but primary shooter casualties will soon place the weapons in untrained hands, quickly leading to friendly fire hazards.

    Using the assessment as a “jumping off” point, at the conclusion of Phase I of the AR test, a universal need statement (UNS) was drafted and submitted through 1st MarDiv. The statement requested that the M249 be replaced with a “true” AR. The weapon envisioned would fire 5.56mm ball ammunition, be capable of receiving the M16A2’s 30-round magazine, and would possess a selector lever that went from safe to automatic to semiautomatic (in that order), weigh less than 12 pounds loaded, employ sights equal to the M16A2, use clip-on bipods, and have a 450 to 600 rounds per minute rate of fire.

    Phase I testing did not provide a “yes” to the original question—“is an AR more accurate than the M249 SAW?” It did, however, highlight the need for a mobile AR, capable of semiautomatic fire at the fire team level. Further, it illuminated the need to address the future employment and role of the M249 SAW light machinegun and a “true” AR in the fire teams, squads, and platoons of the Marine Corps.

    Because of the results achieved in Phase I, testing carried forth with the same automatic weapons into Phase II. Experimental squad and platoon organizations were constructed in order to examine the idea of consolidating the SAWs at various levels of command. The next article in this series will fully addresses the AR UNS submitted by 1st MarDiv and the issues that arose from the experimental organizations.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •