This has been something that's been lurking in the back of many minds for some time, Goesh. There was a fair amount of discussion that the extended voyages home on troopships after WW2 actually allowed the vets on board to decompress and work some things out with others who'd been through the same things. Actually, I'd say that we've seen a PTSD-type situation that is similar to Iraq and Afghanistan before...but it's hard to document due to the elapsed time. It's always been one of my personal theories that many of the waves of western expansion in the US were fueled by folks who had a hard time adjusting after the Civil War and simply "moved on" in the literal sense. A large number of men were demobilized very quickly after that conflict (state volunteer units) and depending on location not all of them had time to "decompress" with others. Also I think the fact that units were so geographically-based would have made losses harder to bear for some of them. It's always been a matter of interest that so many of the "gunslinging lawmen and outlaws" of the post-Civil War period were former military men from the war.Originally Posted by goesh
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
I think y'all are both right...
I've had some long discussions about this subject with veterans from different wars. In this case, I left Iraq early to attend school. It left me unnerved as I said goodbye to my brothers abrubtly.
Today, I remember a little. Tommorow, I live a little. Sometimes we have to remember even though we'd rather forget.
Another important topic to discuss is Vietnam today. They coped and eventually thrived. Why? And will Iraq do that in 30 years?
v/r
Mike
Decompression, a Cultural Variable
All the old WW2 Vets I have known remained plagued with nightmares over the years. This is anecdotal but they were all well adjusted from any number of perspectives - they had no trouble with the law, were economically solvent, steadily employed, family men, no psychiatric history, etc. They did decompress aboard ship, remembering and sharing and dreaming and planning as a unit but they returned to a society that regarded them as Veterans of a just war, one of dire necessity. Shell shock was an accepted condition for many of them and bore no heavy stigma. They had done nothing wrong in a time of urgency and national survival. I don't think we will ever have an answer for any of this when we compare wars and Vets of those wars.
For one thing, we have had but one 'good war' since WW2 - the Gulf War. Secondly, the pioneers who started honestly addressing PTSD unintentionally opened the door for all kinds of people to fall under the umbrella of PTSD. There are people running around who survived a tornado sporting a diagnosis of PTSD for heaven's sake. The sacrifice of our warriors has been culturally deluded. Get bit by a damn dog and in some circles, you have PTSD.
IMO, Afghanistan is going to be the forgotten war just like Korea was and is. I think the jury is still out on Iraq. The criticism of the war has had the caveat that the troops are good guys in a bad war. How this translates psychologically at the interpersonal level amongst Iraqi combat Vets remains to be seen I think. They may in the wee hours of the night in the privacy of their minds regard themselves as mere survivors but I hope not. Our Armed Forces are at least aware of PTSD and attempting to address it. We have that much anyway in our favor.
Life...
There are people i think of and people I often see, but with most of them, my life would not be worse if they were not around....
I am blessed; however, with knowing some who affect my life in such a way a hole is left when they are gone.
Welcome to SWJ
v/r
Mike
Music hath charms...
'Stability lets Basra, a city of poets, return to its roots.', at The Christian Science Monitor.BASRA, IRAQ - At Al Rasheed radio, poet Khalid al-Mayahi leans into the microphone and pours out his heart to the city, using words that could have gotten him killed before Iraqi forces took back Basra last year from Shiite extremists.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0508/p06s01-wome.html
Resolution and Discourse
Sir/Ma'am,
For a moment, I ask you to listen...
Unfortunately, some of you will never understand what I consider...Mostly Airforce and Navy, just delete this email now so you don't get ever burdened lest you get angry by my words....Since you invite me into your office and wave at me in the halls, I felt obliged to add you onto my distro. Your choice to continue.
This is a message that is a long time coming as I tried to reconcile and consider you picturing me in a cardigan sweater and smoking a corn pipe- sorry, not gonna happen... Instead, I've resolved to drive on in the regular Army. I realize this is a shock to many of you, but you must read this email. I can only express my deepest gratitude for the support that you have given me even in my darkest days that I slowly climb out and refuse to succomb...thank you- there are young soldiers I must lead.
At a point, so near and precise, the turning of the gyre was so specific that the falcon could not hear the falconer....Those days passed in a moment of bliss in the heartbeat of the information age that one cannot constrain or confuse between black, white, gray, here, and now...We just move in endless confusion....
These days we must consider stuck inside this prison hoping nothing explodes....McCormick provides some semblance of theory if one would but yet to listen....
Most of you will never comprehend the constraints of combat command particularly significant combat...Some of you do- and you compress and cope with the help of your wives and family...Most do not....You will never understand the prison within my head that I must resolve, and I will. You simply wish to dissect and ridicule my limitations and constraints....I am but man. I strive to be the best leader that I can...In some ways, Monterey became my version of Ranger school....I am forced to reconcile within my head the best I can. Sometimes I get it right; sometimes I get it wrong. Thank goodness for the compassion of defensae analysis that refused to write me off for a broken sort.
I've dealt with a medical community that is mediocre-infected by a virus of static indecision coupled with years of not understanding or neglecting the warfighter. I asked for help and most refused to think outside their conceptual blocks refusing to consider the similarties between thyroid, PTSD, and mTBI....So, I will resolve myself lest I spend the rest of my days in some prescription cocktail. None of what I say is conjecture if you choose to listen.
Don't be fooled to consider that I cannot resolve on my own.....
I thought Zaganiyah was my Thermoplyae. During the Surge, I gave up my hopes of long days in the hope that I would lead men into the breach. I commanded as best as I could. For a moment, I provoked the wisdom of Solomon. I thought the next step was to visit Saint Peter at the gates...It did not happen.
For many moons, I could not discern why I lived. The struggle was hard to determine some purpose. Every day, I awoke wandering why I was alive....Under the table and dreaming I suppose of visions of SFA, FID, an IW....
I moved to Monterey. Tom Ricks quoted my essays. Steven Pressfield sent me autographed copies of his works declaring me the next generation of 300. My wife left...We buried many a man. Every night, I try to resolve.
Everyday, I arise, and I try to discern some purpose....The only purpose is to serve.
The math is so simple even though most will disagree...back into the breach once again, my dear friend....I must rejoin the phalanx. My story is but not yet complete. I've but yet to begin....
Maybe I lost it for a moment, but I've regained it...My mind that is....that is why I write to you now my friend...Most of you read this in terms of dribble wondering why I cannot simply conform or reform to the necessary predesposed orders of you so-called military discipline and rank and order...Others realize I'm walking in step as best as I can in perfert harmony and discourse.
I choose to remain in the Army. I choose to serve.
I'm tired of the self-serving, narcissistic dreaming of reconsidering everyday since birth....It's time to head back to the phalanx and serve once again in the breach.
The nation needs leaders like me at this point. I will finish grad school in December, then head out to the needs of the Army.
As for y'all that are tired of my voice...no worries...You'll soon be comfortable in your homes again as I deploy to Pakistan, Afghanistan, or Iraq.
Sleep well tonight those who judge...Be ye remembered you are protected by tough, hard men that you would never consider.
Best,
Major Mike Few
Last edited by MikeF; 06-05-2009 at 12:44 PM.
You remind me of the Cheyene Dog Soldiers. If you were Indian, you would be carrying more than one eagle feather to where you next deploy.
theory to practice...round and round again
Once again my friend
I enter the breach of no end
will you join
or remain forlorn
amused by your IPod?
Distractions bemuse your content
too busy
to worry about such trifle subjects as war
As I step forth once again
to protect you
my friend
Evermore
Amoung my friends
we fight
laughing
No worries of night
Darkness creeps
to no end
My brother next to me
his shield will never bend
You will never know
how we bleed
In love of duty
honor, and country
This verse will ne'er end
as long as I can still see my friend
hope
will ne'er be forlorn
SSG Timothy Cole
today we remember
lest we forget
and lose our resolve
Today, I say my goodbyes
Today, I kiss my daughter's cheek
and step once more
into the breach
Many days from now
I'm sure
I'll be back amoung your graces
with you I won't pretend
Ever more
I will soldier once again
no more discourse
only resolve
Only volunteers need apply
I'll be leaving soon
Last edited by MikeF; 06-05-2009 at 02:30 PM.
But balance is the key. Always balance.
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Balance is hard. So's life. Take two salt tablets and drive on...
All the Way, Mike.
Airborne, Ken.
Balance is relative. Upon graduation, I'll deploy on my fifth deployment in under ten years. I expect the next ten years to remain on the same pace.
That is the reality of the long war.
v/r
Mike
Frustration
Waiting like a siphoning angel
No one knows they cannot be sure
Gorging in the pit
Suffering evermore
Who will step aside
who will volunteer
In these times of gluttony
Armagedon not today
But
You live in fear
Ne'er knowing what comes tomorrow
Some men bring
Some men volunteer
To no aim you jeer
Better men than you
I hope to lead again
I am just man
I am just nobody
Selected ne'er rejected
my peers wonder why I stay in
Rejecting profit
in the hopes
my citizens awake
and arise to the suffering
I walk again
Ne'er to shy away
God's will
We must all obey
a few men bring
300 the number rings
the history
you will ne'er comprehend
We walk again
into the breach
concerned only
for our daughter's future
Eulogy
Before I walk again, you can at least but read my words.....
You concern yourself
Wandering when I’ll break
Wondering when the time will come
I passed the moment moons ago
I laugh
At your indiscretion
I died long ago
Along the roads of Diyala
Now I live
Striving for purpose
Ne’er concerned
With you prerogative
I fight
Struggling to win
as haphazard
As that may seem
Still
My boys walk with me
In hopes and dreams
Of settling your Long War
I volunteered
You started this
Now
I will find some resolve
You walk aimlessly
In your ignorance
Regardless
I will protect you
Military service, PTSD, stress and suicide
Moderator's Note
This thread's original title was 'Interesting PTSD related Article', which no longer reflects the contents and so changed to 'Military service, PTSD, stress and suicide' (ends).
Frankly, it tracks with my observation over the years. People are different.
LINK.
Last edited by davidbfpo; 07-14-2013 at 10:18 AM. Reason: Add Mod's Note
I have some of the same concerns with "exposure therapy". Agree with Ken also, no one size fits all.
Reed
Everyone is different
So true...
I grieve that neither grief nor fear will teach me nothing.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson, On Nature
v/r
Mike
I think this kind of touches on one of the reasons why we have so much trouble dealing with PTSD: Americans have been conditioned to want ONE therapy or ONE pill to fix everything (sort of an extension of Tolkein's "one ring to rule them all" theory). And now we're dealing with something that is a very individual experience with very individual responses. There is no one magic way, and the sooner our various institutions and personalities involved come to grips with that, the better off we'll all be.
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Steve i think you would appreciate this
Thanks! Great links!
In a shorter vein, BBC had an interesting piece on this sort of thing here.
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Ironically, the US military has been hammered in the press for attempting this holistic approach to work w/ PTSD. It has been sold as a waste of money and resources that would be better spent on focusing on "what works". I disagree with this assessment, often violently. If we completely understood the mechanisms of PTSD, perhaps this would be true, realistically we have theories, but not concrete knowledge. Many of these "alternative" therapies have produced results.
Reed
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