What we support and defend

[Ken White]

Isn't the last federal budget longer ago than two years already? Wouldn't that make the entire existence of the army and also the air force unconstitutional?

There's a trend over the last 40 years or so to lengthen the budget cycles and go to multi-year budgets in most federal appropriations. The Navy has long been a proponent of multi year procurements / budgets and has had some success convincing Congress that it's not only desirable but necessary.

The Army has been less successful because of that clause in the Constitution and because Congress likes to micromanage. Many in Congress contend that multi year budgets and procurements lessen the ability of the Congress to manage the affiars of the Nation...

In short, it's a mixed bag, the Army does get to buy and do some stuff on a multi-year basis because it has to do that in order for things to work nowadays but Congress does get dicey on it on occasion when it suits their purposes.

Carl:

The fact that the Marines are constitutionally protected is not sophistry, its a ploy that they pull from time to time and it always works for them. The Navy -- and thus the Marines -- can and do, due to that clause in the Constitution, go to long term sustainment and funding in the budget. That is fact.

Congress mostly sees the Army as an organization that is perhaps marginally necessary but not socially acceptable. OTOH, Congress likes the Navy and Marines. A bunch. They also like the National Guard, in both cases as a counter to possibly restive Army and Air Force people -- think Seven Days in May -- so they get pride of place funding in comparison to the Army and AF (not that either are underfunded IMO, au contraire...* ). The Middle East and Dictatorships are not the only ones that are made nervous by Armies that are too strong, Democracies buy into that offsetting force routine as well. That's one reason why the inefficiencies and ineptitude you so often deplore are so thoroughly embedded -- Congress does not want the Army to be too good for a variety of reasons. Thus whenever a major Army screwup occurs, Congress goes "Tut-tut," slaps 'em on the wrist -- and immediately returns to business as usual. That's unlikely to change barring an existential problem -- none of which are visible at this time...

It is also fact that the Congress from time to time -- when it suits them -- can point to the Army clause to preclude multi-year contracts or activities (generally when the contract or action in question is to a corporation or effort not favored by some powerful Congroid) . So while this:

The Marines are an army in every sense of the word, they are just under the Navy in the organizational chart.

is mostly but far from completely true as long as that location on the chart makes a difference to Congress and the laws they pass which perpetuate that arrangement, what you (along with a number of people in the Army ) think is sadly immaterial.

Note also that we have air vehicles in the Navy AND the Marines (as well as in the National Guard). Not solely to serve as a counterweight to the Army and Air Force -- but that factor is strongly considered...

Bill Moore:

I think Bob's World has some excellent points but like all attempts to restrain the politicians --Weinberger or Powell Doctrine, anyone? -- I believe you're correct in saying that it is not likely to succeed. Your final sentence is important:

Interesting argument, but one that in my opinion is full of risks that need to be weighed carefully.

What Bob wants is doable if gone about properly. The likelihood of us going about much of anything in the political arena anywhere near properly is terribly slim, so yes, we need to weigh that risk very carefully indeed.

* Some of that overfunding is necessary to offset the tinkering of Congress, most is due to unintended consequences of inefficiencies and conflicting laws, most well intentioned, most very poorly thought out.

[carl]

The fact that the Marines are constitutionally protected is not sophistry, its a ploy that they pull from time to time and it always works for them. The Navy -- and thus the Marines -- can and do, due to that clause in the Constitution, go to long term sustainment and funding in the budget. That is fact.

Well actually, using it as a ploy is sophistry. That is works doesn't make it less so. If you prefer, we have a parallel and redundant army through bureaucratic or legislative legerdemain, not sophistry. In any event in the Constitution mentions Navy, not a corps of marines.

Congress mostly sees the Army as an organization that is perhaps marginally necessary but not socially acceptable. OTOH, Congress likes the Navy and Marines. A bunch. They also like the National Guard, in both cases as a counter to possibly restive Army and Air Force people -- think Seven Days in May -- so they get pride of place funding in comparison to the Army and AF (not that either are underfunded IMO, au contraire...* ). The Middle East and Dictatorships are not the only ones that are made nervous by Armies that are too strong, Democracies buy into that offsetting force routine as well. That's one reason why the inefficiencies and ineptitude you so often deplore are so thoroughly embedded -- Congress does not want the Army to be too good for a variety of reasons. Thus whenever a major Army screwup occurs, Congress goes "Tut-tut," slaps 'em on the wrist -- and immediately returns to business as usual. That's unlikely to change barring an existential problem -- none of which are visible at this time...

You always say that, the Congress is afraid of the Army or Air Force too. Why do you say that? The founders were afraid of standing armies but in the last hundred or hundred and twenty years have any important politicians or major political parties stated that the Army must be kept weak and competing redundant forces must be kept in being to preclude the possibility of a Seven Days in May?

[Ken White]

Correction: Strike that 'q' after "Acta" above...

You always say that, the Congress is afraid of the Army or Air Force too. Why do you say that?

Read what I wrote, don't quote what you want to think I wrote. I did NOT say -- and never have said -- afraid. What I did say was:

""in both cases as a counter to possibly restive Army and Air Force people...The Middle East and Dictatorships are not the only ones that are made nervous by Armies that are too strong, Democracies buy into that offsetting force routine as well...""

Counter, leery of, nervous about, suspicious of -- none of those things equate to afraid. That's not just semantic, words are important. People who see one thing and escalate it are often afraid -- Congress isn't afraid, they just do not fully trust any of the Armed Forces and they trust the Army least -- it makes them nervous because of its size and cost and, truth be told, less than stellar social makeup (in the view of many). I have consistently said this:

""Congress does not want the Army to be too good for a variety of reasons.""

I've written it enough and said why enough that I don't need to do it again here and now. Just paying attention to what Congress does as opposed to what they say should convince anyone who pays attention of the potential for that to be quite true. It is what I very definitely believe because in Congressional Hearing, GAO Audits and in other ways I have seen firm evidence of the existence of that bias over the years.

The founders were afraid of standing armies...

True and you, hopefully noted that I have generally applied that concern over Armies to all Democracies, not just the US. It's pretty plain to see if one just looks about.

but in the last hundred or hundred and twenty years have any important politicians or major political parties stated that the Army must be kept weak and competing redundant forces must be kept in being to preclude the possibility of a Seven Days in May?

My suspicion is that in the US at least, yes, some have -- but I'm not concerned about it enough to go Googling. I think that one might need go back little further than the 60s to find examples...

After the debacle that was Viet Nam, the left leaners learned their lesson and will not denigrate the Troops so one is unlikely to find any instances of such distrust or disaffection cited publicly in the last 20 years or so. Still, as I Wrote, pay attention to what Congress does, even today and not to what they say.

[carl]

Read what I wrote, don't quote what you want to think I wrote. I did NOT say -- and never have said -- afraid. What I did say was:

Counter, leery of, nervous about, suspicious of -- none of those things equate to afraid. That's not just semantic, words are important. People who see one thing and escalate it are often afraid -- Congress isn't afraid, they just do not fully trust any of the Armed Forces and they trust the Army least -- it makes them nervous because of its size and cost and, truth be told, less than stellar social makeup (in the view of many).

Sorry Ken, that semantic thicket you are hiding in provides thin cover. When you write a paragraph that includes references to Seven Days in May, countering possibly restive Army and Air Force people and not the only ones being made nervous by armies that are too strong, you are writing about a Congress that you say is afraid of the Army or what it might do. If somebody says he won't get into the ring with that guy because he suspects, is suspicious of, leery of or concerned (I added concerned on my own) about the outcome, I'd say he is afraid even though he didn't come out and say it. So I fairly read what you wrote, you wrote that Congress is afraid of an Army that is too strong.

I've written it enough and said why enough that I don't need to do it again here and now. Just paying attention to what Congress does as opposed to what they say should convince anyone who pays attention of the potential for that to be quite true. It is what I very definitely believe because in Congressional Hearing, GAO Audits and in other ways I have seen firm evidence of the existence of that bias over the years.True and you, hopefully noted that I have generally applied that concern over Armies to all Democracies, not just the US. It's pretty plain to see if one just looks about.My suspicion is that in the US at least, yes, some have -- but I'm not concerned about it enough to go Googling. I think that one might need go back little further than the 60s to find examples...

After the debacle that was Viet Nam, the left leaners learned their lesson and will not denigrate the Troops so one is unlikely to find any instances of such distrust or disaffection cited publicly in the last 20 years or so. Still, as I Wrote, pay attention to what Congress does, even today and not to what they say.

You say the Congress acts like it does because it is afraid of an Army that is too strong and the evidence of that is the actions of the Congress. That may be if there is only one possible explanation for those actions, but there is not. Simple incompetence is an alternative and I believe very definitely a more plausible explanation in my view.

Well if you can't cite any statements by important politicians or political parties that support your contention that Congress is afraid...oops..."leery of, nervous about, suspicious of" a strong Army and acts in such a way to keep it weak, then we are left with your opinion. Which, in my opinion, is wrong.

I did note your words about all democracies. I just disregarded them because we aren't talking about all of them, only one.

[Bob's World]

All,

Our Constitution was a document uniquely written by Americans for Americans. Written by men after much debate as to how to ensure stability in a fledgling country made up of to that point by 13 distinct and sovereign states. Written by men who had grown to maturity as oppressed citizens of a government they deemed as illegitimate to govern them, held in check by the regular army of that government. An army they were forced to house and feed in their very homes; and in an environment where they were denied fundamental rights to gather and express their discontent, and a government that felt no compulsion to hear or respond to their reasonable concerns.

These same men then became rebels and insurgents, and fought to free themselves and this land and these people from such oppression; then in the summer of 1786 with the Confederation crumbling in disarray around them, they came together to design a system of governance that would allow such a diverse mix of sovereign states to work together as one, and to prevent the forms and actions of government that they knew first hand to be so destructive to human dignity and liberty.

This is no less true today than it was then. We do well not to forget what makes us stable. Today many argue that the key to our stability at home rests in our ability to go forth and attempt to force stability abroad. This is the result of generations of sliding slowly, but surely, down what is known in the law as "the slippery slope."

So, here we are today, not at the base of that slippery slope, and God forbid we allow ourselves to slide that far. But we are far down from the crest as well. Perhaps so far that many cannot recall where we once were, or see what we once could see. Climbing back up a slippery slope is far more difficult than sliding down it. Many prefer that easy path. But that path is wrong and that path is un-American, and that path ignores the issues, the intentions and the goals of the framers of our system of governance. It is time to ignore the loud voices of ignorance who seek to stir up unreasonable fears of what others do that might some day or in some small way affect us, while neglecting to focus on what we do to so severely affect ourselves. It is time to take that proverbial hard right over the easy wrong.

America must secure her interests. But as I said at the start, our Ends have come to be defined in far too ideological of terms. Our Ways have become far too controlling over the lives of others. Lastly, our Means for securing our interests have come to be far to reliant on military action; this leading us to believe we must sustain a warfighting army to secure our peace. When one must have an Army at war to keep a Nation at peace, I suspect one is probably going at it in the wrong way. Just my perception.

My oath is to support and defend the Constitution. Not just the parts I find convenient. But to support and defend something, one must first understand what it truly stands for, and current interpretations on key aspects, such as role of the military, have become very biased by events of the past 60 years. Those years are a part of our past, but they do not define our future. We need to look a bit farther back to find those insights.

[carl]

Bob:

Nice speech. Doesn't change the fact that we have had a standing army and will have a standing army. The world and its events insure that will happen. We, as a matter of fact, have two standing armies, one of which we call the Marine Corps. We could get away with delusions that we could do without one in the late 1700s, times changed, and they changed pretty quick. They won't change back.

I observe that you are in the habit of wrapping your opinions in the flag by repeatedly using "un-American" as a label to discredit courses of action you disapprove of. How very intolerant of you, why it positively un-American.

[Bob's World]

Carl,

Name a single situation, other than the deterrence of the Soviet Union in Western Europe during the Cold War, that has demanded our possession of a large standing peacetime Army in the history of the US. Just one.

I strongly encourage those who have an interest in this topic to read the two histories of the American Army written by Edward M Coffman. He gives a very detailed account of the peacetime history of our Army and the nature and outcomes of these debates over time.

Now, I do not believe that we need no standing Army, but the Army is a warfighting force, so not much is needed in peace of that type of capacity. The Marines are another story, and they are not "another Army," they are part of our Naval forces and perform the land component supporting role to our peacetime naval forces you have described in earlier posts.

The Marines to expeditionary interventions. Yes, in times of war they are a competent warfighting force, but their primary purpose is to ensure we have the capacity in times of peace to perform these types of limited operations as necessary to secure our interests.

In peace the USMC should probably be comparable in size to the Active Army, if not larger. Total Army will always be larger, but in times of peace will be made up predominantly of unmobilized militia.

Be clear on this, I do not question the patriotism of those Americans who so strongly advocate for a large Army and the continuous employment of it in times of peace in military adventures around the globe. I simply point out that this is not in step with the principles that our nation is founded upon, and therefore "un-American."

As to the requirement for such adventures today? You and others deem them to be inevitable, the reality of the world we live in today. But please Carl, name for me a single existential threat to the United States and our role in the world. Just one. We do not act out as we do because we are in danger, we act out because we have defined our strategy in such outrageous expansive terms of ideological Ends and overly controlling ways that the only way we can get others to conform with what we want them to do is by applying excessive Military Means. That too, I argue, is un-American.

Yes you are a patriot. But that does not save you from reasonable assessments that what you think is necessary to preserve America is also un-American. I merely make the argument that one can be both patriotic and promote approaches more in-synch with our founding principles than those we currently pursue. That is an argument that makes many uncomfortable. Those people need to be uncomfortable. My son was not "comfortable" during his two tours as a Combat Infantryman in Iraq. I was not comfortable during my deployments as a Special Forces officer and 26 years of service either. We have ramped up the military optempo to unsustainable rates to prop up an unsustainable strategy. That is the bad news. The good news is that that strategy can be easily updated to a much more sustainable one that is more in synch with both our principles and our challenges; and that we do not need a military in a perpetual state of conflict to support such a strategy. This is the essence of the wisdom found in works such as Sun Tzu.

So, show me where my understanding of our founding is wrong.
Show me the existential threats to our nation today.
Show me where America ever suffered more than a black eye for not having a large standing army ready to fight.
Show me.

Otherwise, I have little choice but to dismiss you as one very passionate, very uninformed Chicken hawk. Quick to see dangerous threats where none exist, and just as quick to call for others to go out and do something about those minor threats and challenges to appease your fears. Such fears and such positions, granted, held by many, currently weaken our nation. You are in large company, but I do not find it to be particularly good company.

Now is the time for more thought and reflection as to how we best secure our nation into the future. Einstein once said, "If given an hour to save the world, I would spend 59 minutes thinking about how to save the world, and 1 minute saving it." Sadly, that too is "un-American." We prefer the opposite. Spend a month preparing a CONOP telling the President how we can solve a problem by throwing our standing army at it, and then a decade attempting to make that solution work. We can do better.

[wm]

In another post in this thread, Bob's World chastises another for skewing history. I tend to believe that much of what follows in the first quoted passage is also a skewing of history.

Our Constitution was a document uniquely written by Americans for Americans. Written by men after much debate as to how to ensure stability in a fledgling country made up of to that point by 13 distinct and sovereign states. Written by men who had grown to maturity as oppressed citizens of a government they deemed as illegitimate to govern them, held in check by the regular army of that government. An army they were forced to house and feed in their very homes; and in an environment where they were denied fundamental rights to gather and express their discontent, and a government that felt no compulsion to hear or respond to their reasonable concerns.

These same men then became rebels and insurgents, and fought to free themselves and this land and these people from such oppression; then in the summer of 1786 with the Confederation crumbling in disarray around them, they came together to design a system of governance that would allow such a diverse mix of sovereign states to work together as one, and to prevent the forms and actions of government that they knew first hand to be so destructive to human dignity and liberty.

My oath is to support and defend the Constitution. Not just the parts I find convenient. But to support and defend something, one must first understand what it truly stands for, and current interpretations on key aspects, such as role of the military, have become very biased by events of the past 60 years. Those years are a part of our past, but they do not define our future. We need to look a bit farther back to find those insights.

I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution as well. However, if nothing else we have the issue of strict versus loose constructionism to address. In other words, exactly what did we swear to support and defend? Is it the words on the page of those pieces of paper in the National Archives or is it some interpretation of those words that may have changed over time? If the latter, which interpretation(s) is/are binding?

I like to view the two framing documents as something like an operations order for Operation USA. The Declaration of Independence is Paragraph 1 of that Op Order: Situation. A significant (and I think greatly overlooked) piece of the Constitution is its Preamble. I view this as the Mission statement for Operation USA. The remainder of the basic document constitute the opord's remaining three paragraphs while the various amendments serve as fragos that modify the operation due to changes in the situation. The various laws of the US Code might well be viewed as the various specialized Annexes that turn most opords into such ponderous works.

If you like this analogy, then reflect that never has the Preamble been modified. In other words, we the people of the United States still have a mission to "form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity." Doing that is what "supporting and defending the Constition" meant to me when I took my oath and is what that phrase still means to me today.

[Bob's World]

Well, I don't want to be too obtuse. My points are simple:

1. The constitution specifies very different duties to congress for raising and funding Armies vice sustaining a Navy. I don't see where that distinction is given much notice in modern debates.

2. Our Ends-Ways-Means of national strategy are IMO way off base in each of those categories and need to be reined back in to be less ideological, less controlling, less militarized.

3. Power has shifted over the years from the Congress to the Executive, most notably in terms of the modern Cold War and post Cold War conflicts that the existence of a large peacetime standing army has enabled.

4. Historically our peacetime Army has been very small and the US has never suffered due to that. Yes, "first fights" have often been difficult, but the US has never been seriously threatened by an armed foe. On the other hand, by having a large army on the shelf ready to go it has allowed the US to dive into all manner of wars of choice, from Vietnam to Iraq. The President can launch the force and then put huge pressure on the Congress to "support the troops" in combat to keep funding what the President started.

This disrupts our historic balance where a President was required to go to Congress and ask for the Congress to fund and raise an Army in order to go on such an adventure. This allows time for a national debate to occur, for emotions to stabilize, and for more appropriate COAs of full DIME to be developed and employed.

Yes, the US needs a small peacetime Regular force. This was a force that varied from 25,000 to 28,000 during the period from the Civil War to the Spanish American War. Of note, the Indian tribes fought on the frontier were a far greater threat, conducting far more egregious atrocities against American citizens and interests than anything AQ has been able to muster. The Comanche (corrected from Cheyenne) alone make AQ look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

As I recall this number bumped up to closer to 90,000 during the next peace time era leading up to WWI. Britain with their vast Empire is better model for the US today, with around 225,000. France and Germany were well over 500,000, and Russia was something like 6 million (probably including reserves).

Bottom line is that regardless of what the final number is for the Army in peace, lets get the mission right, lets be in synch with Constitution, lets re-empower Congress and let's get serious about coming to a more appropriate overall strategy for the world as it exists today. We exaggerate VEOs and "rogue states" and are falling quickly into new era of Containment with China that completely ignores their own sphere of influence and clearly stated Red Lines.

We have 60 years of inertia pushing us on a crash course with reality, and the sooner we seek to regain control over that the better.

[Ken White]

Sorry Ken, that semantic thicket you are hiding in provides thin cover.

I don't hide.

...Simple incompetence is an alternative and I believe very definitely a more plausible explanation in my view.

That's certainly a factor but it doesn't explain the political power of either the Navy and Marines or of the National Guard, does it?[

Which, in my opinion, is wrong.

Dueling opinions --as usual, others will make up their own minds. Fortunately.

I did note your words about all democracies. I just disregarded them because we aren't talking about all of them, only one.

What's this "we" stuff. You may be talking about one of them, I am talking and have consistently talked about all or certainly most of them in this context. However, I acknowledge that "disregarding" the inconvenient helps give your opinion a slightly enhanced position.

[carl]

I don't hide.

Fair enough. Carefully concealed then.

That's certainly a factor but it doesn't explain the political power of either the Navy and Marines or of the National Guard, does it?

Actually I think it does, rather nicely, at least as far and the Marines and the National Guard go. The Navy should have the influence it has or even more (maybe) seeing as how we are an island nation.

[Dueling opinions --as usual, others will make up their own minds. Fortunately.

I fully agree.

What's this "we" stuff.

You may be talking about one of them, I am talking and have consistently talked about all or certainly most of them in this context. However, I acknowledge that "disregarding" the inconvenient helps give your opinion a slightly enhanced position.

Sorry, I got confused since this thread is about the US Constitution and the standing army in the US, why I just naturally figured we were talking about the US.

[Ken White]

Fair enough. Carefully concealed then.

Nor that for sure. There's nothing here to warrant seeking concealment and I'm lazy so I don't bother.

Actually I think it does, rather nicely, at least as far and the Marines and the National Guard go. The Navy should have the influence it has or even more (maybe) seeing as how we are an island nation.

We do understand that's your opinion. Others may differ. The "maybe" is a nice touch. A little introduction of a shade of gray. Does that mean your black and white outlook is changing for the better?

Sorry, I got confused since this thread is about the US Constitution and the standing army in the US, why I just naturally figured we were talking about the US.

Selective omission? The thread does discuss the US, I introduced the fact that other Democracies have a particular attribute as that IMO had and has a bearing on the discussion. As I said, you can disregard the inconvenient.

I suspect that 'distrust' does not equate to 'afraid' in the minds of most but I think 'conceal' probably does equate to 'hide.' As a minor point of which I'm sure you're aware, imprecision or carelessness in word use in this medium can lead to a perception of misquoting at worst, misunderstanding at least. Either way, it seems to lead to voluminous posts of little real merit...