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  1. #121
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Don't know iof it will help or not, but Matt Armstrong and I have been batting stuff around on our bogs. Matt's is here, and mine response to it is here.
    I read both of your and Matts a few times. I liked them both. Here is the other piece where I was originally trying to work through the relationships. You know they are work products because they are b/w only.

    http://www.selil.com/media/ioQuestion.jpg
    Last edited by selil; 12-27-2008 at 04:16 PM.
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  2. #122
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    I rhink that the crucial thing that is being left out of a lot of the discussion, including the blogs , is the distinction between a medium and a message. Contra McLuhan, the medium is not the message (anyway, the title of the book was, actually, The Medium is the Massage - no, it's not a joke ), but it does influence the interpretaton of the signal - it "massages" it .

    CNO, EW, and, to a lesser degree, Media Affairs are, to my mind, all medium based knowledge groups. PA, CA and PSYOPS are more "full spectrum" (of media) based groups. And, while we're at it, standard TTP's for COIN are genre based as well; at least in the sense of message genre.

    All of this is why I think that IO, as a hierarchically superior taxon, needs to develop a theory and, perhaps more importantly, a professional language,m that cross all of these areas. Doesn't mean that you can't, or shouldn't, have specialists in each area; I'm just more interested in seeing that they are all capable of talking to each other and have a (fairly) unified model of what effects could / should be produced.

    Marc

    ps. Option C, definitely!
    Last edited by marct; 07-03-2008 at 08:03 PM. Reason: added ps.
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  3. #123
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    ps. Option C, definitely!
    Sent you an email...
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  4. #124
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    Sent you an email...
    Got it and digesting now...
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  5. #125
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Interesting, although I couldn't see the pretty pictures . I think your basic point, about cyber-warfare being a "new" terrain, is pretty valid; at least as much as any other terrain distinctions that are made. I don't see this as excluding cyber-warfare from the IO field but, then again, I don't see the other types of terrain-based warefare as being excluded (depending on the type of results that are aimed at).
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  6. #126
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    Default Forgot a couple of things

    Selil I'm like C, but it is missing supporting and related capabilities, but that also supports the argument that you task organize as required to accomplish a particular objective. I think most of Marc's and Eden's posts focus heavily, if not strictly on influence/PSYOP, and do not address the broader fusion of all the enabling disciplines (which I think is the intent, whether reasonable or not) to achieve information dominance.

    Bruce Lee was not only a great martial artists, he was an accomplished philosopher (in my opinion), and he wrote something about a punch that I think is relevant. Paraphrased, when you first start training a punch is just a punch, but as you become more advanced the punch becomes very complicated, then when you master it a punch is just a punch.

    I think we have realized we don't do the IO basics well so we're trying to develop new systems, new terms, new staff positions etc., so now it is very complicated, but in the end the guys on the groun will just do it again.

  7. #127
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Got it and digesting now...
    Hope somebody in Maple Leaf land knows the Heimlich Maneuver.

    ETA: Wizards of OZ has a corollary article to MountainRunner and Harmonium discussion. His view is more about how leaders use information and organizations use information to make descisions. I thought it was an interesting twist.
    Last edited by selil; 07-03-2008 at 08:33 PM.
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  8. #128
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    Hope somebody in Maple Leaf land knows the Heimlich Maneuver.
    Bahh! I just had my cat read it !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    ETA: Wizards of OZ has a corollary article to MountainRunner and Harmonium discussion. His view is more about how leaders use information and organizations use information to make descisions. I thought it was an interesting twist.
    It is, and it really speaks to the point about information channels within an organization and to the institutionalization of those channels. Nice find!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Moore View Post
    Selil I'm like C, but it is missing supporting and related capabilities, but that also supports the argument that you task organize as required to accomplish a particular objective. I think most of Marc's and Eden's posts focus heavily, if not strictly on influence/PSYOP, and do not address the broader fusion of all the enabling disciplines (which I think is the intent, whether reasonable or not) to achieve information dominance.
    Bill, hey, at the rate those blog posts of mine are going, I'm only getting one definition in per post !

    Seriously, though, I may be showing my 19th century style of writing, but I really think that we have to start from theoretical basics and then move into deployment later. I'm also not sure that "information dominance" is the right model - I would prefer "perceptual prevalence", at least on the influence/PSYOPS side of things, but that's another post...

    Broader fusion? I agree that that was probably part of Andrew's original intent, and I like to see his views on it. For myself, I would also like to see the inclusion of Strategic Communications or Public Diplomacy added in. since that provides a message towards the intentionality of other actions. Also, I keep wondering why you folks (i.e. the US) purposefully leaves out Intelligence from the mix - seems a mistake to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Moore View Post
    I think we have realized we don't do the IO basics well so we're trying to develop new systems, new terms, new staff positions etc., so now it is very complicated, but in the end the guys on the groun will just do it again.
    Yeah, I agree and, honestly, I place the cause squarely on the lack of a good, unifying theory - then again, that is my (academic) bent after all . Always trying to re-invent the wheel isn't always the best idea after all, but it can sometimes be the best operational choice IFF you have a good theory to base that reinvention on.
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  9. #129
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Moore View Post
    Selil I'm like C, but it is missing supporting and related capabilities, but that also supports the argument that you task organize as required to accomplish a particular objective. I think most of Marc's and Eden's posts focus heavily, if not strictly on influence/PSYOP, and do not address the broader fusion of all the enabling disciplines (which I think is the intent, whether reasonable or not) to achieve information dominance.
    This diagram was meant to show the inter-related capabilities. The cone shape is actually a 3d representation of a venn diagram. The graph as given can be generated mathematically and shows a discrete math relationship. The length of the z-axis (here time) and resultant circumference at the terminus shows the particular subjects total effort. The time scale is just for consideration but it could be "man hours" or "operations". The different subjects if looked at on end would look like the "C" option in the previous picture.




    I get yelled at sometimes for my pretty pictures but the really neato thing is you can turn them into numbers. You just have to pick what you are willing to measure. Here I'm more interested in the unions, intersections, and the discrete nature of the different topics.
    Last edited by selil; 07-03-2008 at 09:40 PM.
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post

    I get yelled at sometimes for my pretty pictures but the really neato thing is you can turn them into numbers. You just have to pick what you are willing to measure. Here I'm more interested in the unions, intersections, and the discrete nature of the different topics.
    Of course the real issue is that you used 'panoply' in your diagram. How to show in a few simple strokes of the keyboard that you're not an IO guy.

  11. #131
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    I get yelled at sometimes for my pretty pictures but the really neato thing is you can turn them into numbers. You just have to pick what you are willing to measure. Here I'm more interested in the unions, intersections, and the discrete nature of the different topics.
    Pretty pictures do look good in PowerPoint !

    Actually, I prefer fuzzy sets as opposed to crisp sets for something like IO (or anything more complex than apples and cars ). Then again, y mind does work just a touch differently from many people .
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  12. #132
    Council Member Randy Brown's Avatar
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    Default For the good of the cause ...

    Daninfowar posted the following observations on the SWJ Blog 03 July. Because I thought it germaine to the larger theme of this thread--and because I couldn't remember whether he'd also posted here--I thought I'd relay them for the proverbial good of the cause ...

    (In doing so, I leave it to the reader to determine whether I'm exercising my Public Affairs or PSYOP muscles.)

    While the definition of IO in JP 3-13 is IMHO misguided--it's pretty good for Info Warfare, but we've excised that term from the doctrinal lexicon--the pub has the answer to a better one, which coincides with what I've been teaching for over a decade. (See NDU Strategic Forum #115, "Defining Information Power", June 1997, at http://www.ndu.edu/inss/strforum/SF115/forum115.html ) How do we characterize or define operations in our other environments? Simple: air operations are the use of the aerospace, maritime ops are the water/sea, etc. JP 3-13 does a very nice job out outlining the information environment--again, mirroring my teaching for the past decade--as the integration of three distinct yet interrelated dimensions, which I paraphrase as CONNECTIVITY (the ability to exchange information), CONTENT (what gets exchanged), and COGNITIVE EFFECT (how humans are affected). The biggest problem with the current 3-13 definition--and also the reason it was created--is that it is nothing more than a collection of budget programs and rice bowls: we have defined IO in terms of what we are bureaucratically able to spend DOD $$ on. That is understandable--concepts without resources are merely hallucinations--but also stupid and dysfunctional. A FAR better approach would be to define IO as terms of its operational environment: if what you are doing is connecting/sharing content, or creating content, or using it to achieve cognitive results, you are doing IO.
    By the way, I am still enjoying the pretty colors and afterglow of Selil's conical, graphical fireworks show. Keep 'em coming!
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    Council Member dguidry1's Avatar
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    Post Another Conceptual Illustration

    Based on the diagrams presented by "selil", I offer to the group that Diagram A is closest to what the original doctrine intended. Again, Information Operations is truly more of a 'process' rather than a set of clearly definable TTPs. Below is one of several illustartions that I use to show the relationship of IO to various capabilities:

    IO Concept-Theory3.jpg

    The easiest way for me to explain it is to say that IO is the critical thinking process (BIG RED circle) use to determine what specific capabilities/resources (little yellow circle) should be coordinated, synchronized, and integrated into operations in order to achieve desired effects. And nearly every operational diagram that I've seen, especially in terms of Lines of Operation for instance, depict IO as being wrapped around or interwoven through everything else. But even though that is the case, there is still a tendency for leaders to ignore that concept and try and employ IO as a separate entity - it can't be done.

    Another thing that we should not try to do is categorize IO as a primary form of consequence management. When a regional "EVENT" occurs that has potentially exploitable or negative effects in an area of operations or concern, IO is not the first-responder for media mitigation --- it is Public Affairs or some other governmental communications/broadcast organization. When an event of that kind occurs, that begins a new cycle of IO PLANNING - the purpose of which is to account for changes in the Information Environment that affect our ability to influence target audiences. Parallel IO planning in the MDMP would likely have anticipated negative events, allowing IO practitioners to coordinate/integrate those resources and capabilities that would influence non-support of those adverse actions. IO should not wait for something to happen, it should be used to influence what happens in the first place.

    There is no set formula that can define Information Operations. The "art" is understanding what pieces of the puzzle are important, and how to arrange those pieces (media, PSYOP, CNO, lethal actions, other technology, etc) through critical thinking to influence people and events and achieve desired outcomes...so much more than traditional MDMP and staff actions. And this concept is not limited to a certain level(s). It spans the spectrum from strategic through tactical...

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    Default I agree with everyone you say, however...

    Derrill, in your last paragraph you accurately state that there is no formula that can define Information Operations. Before I left the dreaded corporate world to work IO exclusively, I was in the process of requesting R&D funding to make just that kind of formula a reality. There are quite a few 'formulae' that accurately describe the effects of information on a targeted population; the problem is they are overly simplistic and only one-way. In my opinion it’s all based on gut reactions. This being small wars council and all, it should make sense because the commander would be the one to approve the plan based his or her personal assessment based on experience, knowledge and the omniscient gut feeling.

    A secondary problem regards a quantifiable and/or qualifiable feedback mechanism. There are ways to do this but "Measures of Effectiveness" are often subjective, this is an ongoing challenge. Again, before I left the corporate world I was in the process of trying to ‘suck in’ some operations that specialize in producing this feedback, but the effort has since died on the vine. It wasn't because I left; it was a pure business decision.

    A third problem is automation. It would be nice to pop in some factors into a planning tool and at the anticipated Time of Effectiveness see certain factors rise or fall as expected. I'm grossly oversimplifying the entire process for illustration. There are massive efforts underway to create a human factors analytic environment, few will come to fruition in my opinion, but eventually they should produce something we can use.
    Last edited by joelhar; 07-08-2008 at 08:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dguidry1 View Post

    The easiest way for me to explain it is to say that IO is the critical thinking process (BIG RED circle) use to determine what specific capabilities/resources (little yellow circle) should be coordinated, synchronized, and integrated into operations in order to achieve desired effects.
    Now if only the little yellow circle had the three blobs out to the right as part of its tool box rather than just seeing them as inputs ...

    I still believe we get too caught up on the task verbs when we plan IO effects. ie Influence must be a PSYOP task , Inform must be a PA task etc. This doctrinal/legal firewall about specific organisations to create specific effects simply dilutes the IO effect in that it can't be fully synchronised, coordinated and integrated if aspects keep throwing up a red card.

    Information influences ... it is impossible to just inform without having an influencing effect. Therefore if we are looking for tactical through to strategic effects, PA does 90 per cent of the heavy lifting in the influence game at the op/strategic level.

    Nowhere in that statement have I said that PA needs to use untruths ... (not that I've ever used them in PSYOP anyway so I still fail to see where that argument has sprung from) but like all corporate PR organisations it will be selective in its release of truthful facts which when tied together with an authoritative and attributable spokesperson suddenly creates a shaping effect ... holy crap it's rocket science!!!

    Our future intent is to have our PA annexes as appendices to the IO (or whatever we call it) annex of the OPINST/OPORD and out PAOs working under our S/J/G/SO39 (or whatever we call them).

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    Council Member dguidry1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    Now if only the little yellow circle had the three blobs out to the right as part of its tool box rather than just seeing them as inputs ...
    It's funny how pictures and diagrams encourage us to see things literally...but Spud your thinking is very logical because the 'blobs' on the right really are part of the toolbox AND the process. I think over the last few years the IO-PAO-PSYOP conflicts and controversies forced TRADOC to mediate the arguments with semantics. Since becoming an FA30/IO guy, I have never once been made to believe that I am supposed to do the jobs of the PAO and PSYOP officers, but it had to be clearly stated in order to cut down on at least some of the confusion. So there is always much emphasis on the fact that Public Affairs, CMO, and DSPD are "related" capabilities to show that IO does not own or control them.

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    Council Member dguidry1's Avatar
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    Default Breaking it down...

    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    I still believe we get too caught up on the task verbs when we plan IO effects. ie Influence must be a PSYOP task , Inform must be a PA task etc. This doctrinal/legal firewall about specific organisations to create specific effects simply dilutes the IO effect in that it can't be fully synchronised, coordinated and integrated if aspects keep throwing up a red card.
    I also agree wholeheartedly with you on this. I've said before that I see everything as being connected to [I]everything else[I]. Everything we say/don't say and everything we do/don't do influences somebody or something in various ways. I would like to see the "I" in IO stand for 'INFLUENCE' primarily because of its holistic nature. That way ANY activity or resource coodinated/integrated/synched with the intent of changing behaviors and affecting decision-making would be considered to be part of the overall INFLUENCE operation. Here is a snapshot of what I mean:

    COMMANDER'S INTENT: Decrease violence, establish security, ensure regional economic stability [hypothetical generic situation].

    PUBLIC AFFAIRS: PA focus is on informing international consumers of news media (OP/STRAT). It could publish/broadcast a lot of info, but also hold back certain facts until later that could potentially affect an ongoing operation, special mission, PSYOP campaign, etc. PA integrity is never compromised.

    PSYOP: Focuses on regional target audiences - conduct TA analysis, determine atmospherics, develop/implement campaigns and products IAW current themes/messages approved through POTF channels, inform target audiences with the intent to influence via means tailored specifically for those TA's, etc.

    MECH INF BN: Plans and executes physical actions that also support command intent - patrols, raids, searches, lethal actions, etc. The planning of these actions and the manner in which they are executed (pre-, during, post-) also influence and inform audiences in the area of operations. A unit that continues to go into local communities and interacts with populaces even in areas of imminent danger can change the way a potential bad guy sees an insurgency...maybe he'll change his mind and support actions against the group that was actively trying to recruit him. And another thing - sometimes you have to kill some folks to make a point [send a message]. That is part of the nature of armed conflict. Everything WILL NOT be non-lethal in an environment where we are ordered to carry loaded weapons. But again, detailed planning and targeting will mitigate having to explain extreme collateral damage, fratricide, etc. The innocent citizens without weapons probably want you to kill the bad guy to protect his family. The result might be deterrence of further hostile actions, and the earned and active support of the family that now feels protected - that's influence also.

    CNO: During all this activity there might be increased activity on the internet as bad guys coordinate retaliatory ops...the CNO gurus could disrupt their communications with computer network attacks, making it difficult to prevent the realization of commander's intent.

    EW: Because we are capturing/killing key adversary leaders and making the bad guys look bad in the international press, they increase their use of satellite communications as they request assistance from international terrorist groups across the globe. EW, along with the SIGINT guys, can lay the smack down on these communications…and now we’re really spanning the spectrum from tactical to strategic. Communications intercepted in a local city through EW means could lead to a requirement for assistance from the NSA, CIA, or even INTERPOL.

    MILDEC: Somebody has to be able to go into the deption cave and talk to the MILDEC planners without compromising their activities - and THEN be able to synch it with all the overt stuff.

    The possible players and scenarios are endless…

    But where is IO in all of this? The IO officer(s), as a representative of and advisor to the commander, MUST be able to understand individually each of the above mentioned activities…+ even more…and be able to understand how they can complement or conflict with one another. He/she also must have the knowledge, experience, intuition, etc, to anticipate the effects of these activities and then mentally orchestrate their integration/implementation/execution IAW the commander’s intent. Each of the SME’s can dedicate focus on their areas without spending lots of time trying to figure out who else is doing what – that’s what IO is for.

    Each individual area or resource produces any number of individual effects. IO does not dictate what these areas do; it considers ALL of the activities and internal/external influencing factors in a holistic context, and ensures their coordination/synchronization as a CONSOLIDATED effort in terms of the most important desired effect --- the Commander’s Intent. And this goes above and beyond and deeper than traditional staff responsibilities. And depending on where you sit the “commander” could be a BN or BDE commander on the tactical side, or the POTUS on the strategic end.

    I apologize for the length of my post, but I am sincerely dedicated to breaking the stereotype and reputation of IO as an additional means of simply informing an audience…it’s so much more…

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    Council Member dguidry1's Avatar
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    Default Decision Matrix...

    Quote Originally Posted by joelhar View Post
    A third problem is automation. It would be nice to pop in some factors into a planning tool and at the anticipated Time of Effectiveness see certain factors rise or fall as expected. I'm grossly oversimplifying the entire process for illustration. There are massive efforts underway to create a human factors analytic environment, few will come to fruition in my opinion, but eventually they should produce something we can use.
    My belief is that we will never see such an all-encompassing automation tool...and we shouldn't. As a society we've become enslaved by the desire and need for technology. Sometimes we just have to sit back and apply good ol' human knowledge, common sense, and "GUT FEELINGS" to situations.

    Some of you might remember the old DECMAT (Decision Matrix) program that came on a 3.5 floppy diskette. On the X-axis you listed the possible COAs. On the Y-axis you listed the most important determining factors. In the intersecting boxes of the matrix the user assigned values, weighted them, and then added the totals to get a solution. I still use this method with pen and paper. The thing with DECMAT is not so much the automated outcome, but rather the fact that the user was still forced to think through the problem set. No rocket science required...

  19. #139
    Council Member Randy Brown's Avatar
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    Default Lightning round

    Quote Originally Posted by dguidry1 View Post
    Since becoming an FA30/IO guy, I have never once been made to believe that I am supposed to do the jobs of the PAO and PSYOP officers, but it had to be clearly stated in order to cut down on at least some of the confusion.
    "Information Operations just wants to be free!"

    Love your subsequent breakdown, by the way. And don't worry about word-count, on these or other posts--you're creating a lot of non-lethal learning effects on this end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    Information influences ... it is impossible to just inform without having an influencing effect. Therefore if we are looking for tactical through to strategic effects, PA does 90 per cent of the heavy lifting in the influence game at the op/strategic level.

    Nowhere in that statement have I said that PA needs to use untruths ... (not that I've ever used them in PSYOP anyway so I still fail to see where that argument has sprung from) but like all corporate PR organisations it will be selective in its release of truthful facts which when tied together with an authoritative and attributable spokesperson suddenly creates a shaping effect ...
    As a card-carrying civilian Fourth Estater and occasional Fifth Columnist, I've got no problem with the idea that Army Public Affairs tells no lies, but does tell a pointed truth. I'd just ask that my brothers and sisters in uniform remember that the pen cuts both ways ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    Our future intent is to have our PA annexes as appendices to the IO (or whatever we call it) annex of the OPINST/OPORD and out PAOs working under our S/J/G/SO39 (or whatever we call them).
    Great TTP! I'm forwarding it to my unit's PAO and IO guys/gals right now.
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  20. #140
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Heresy ! ! !

    Quote Originally Posted by dguidry1 View Post
    My belief is that we will never see such an all-encompassing automation tool...and we shouldn't. As a society we've become enslaved by the desire and need for technology. Sometimes we just have to sit back and apply good ol' human knowledge, common sense, and "GUT FEELINGS" to situations.
    However, you're right. Do not change...

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