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Thread: Infantry Unit Tactics, Tasks, Weapons, and Organization

  1. #241
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    Skimming this thread and looking internet makes me feel inadequate, as finnish army lacks pretty much any machine guns outside infatry squads. Also our direct HE capability is nearly zero, but propably amount of indirect tubes more than makes up that. And propably lack of direct HE and MGs is due to nature of terrain and not lack of funding.

    Here I show M/05 Jaeger battalion and company compositions to best of my knowledge.
    Here is jaeger battalion/05
    Battalion HQ
    HQ company
    HQ-platoon (Don't know its internal make up)
    Signals platoon (Don't know its internal make up)
    Anti-tank platoon (platoon HQ and 3 anti-tank squads divided into apilas/mbt-law team and spike team)
    Recon platoon (platoon HQ and three squads)
    (Heavy mortar platoon (if brigade has amos) (3-4 AMOS)
    Service platoon (propably similar to infantry company's
    (something more propably)
    3xinfantry company
    3xinfatry platoon
    HQ and support platoon
    service platoon
    (Heavy mortar company (if brigade doesn't have amos)
    2-3xmortar platoon (platoon HQ and 3 120mm mortars)
    HQ and service platoon
    Service Company
    Delivery platoon (Don't know its internal make up)
    Maintenance platoon (Don't know its internal make up)
    Medical platoon (Don't know its internal make up)
    (My knowledge ends here) (Don't know its internal make up)

    Here is jaeger company m/05
    Company HQ (Company CO, 2iC, company fires officer
    HQ and support platoon
    Platoon HQ( Platoon leader, platoon 2iC, RATELO, medic)
    Motorcycle messengers/scout team (3-4 bikes or snow mobiles
    Sniper team (4 snipers)
    Fire support squad (2x81 mm mortar with crew of 5 and fire direction team with direction officer, fire direction NCO and 2 signallers/RATELO)
    Anti-tank squad
    2xAnti-tank team (3 anti-tank gunners with APILAS or MBT-LAW. one of the teams is led NCO and other one by private)
    Forward observer team (Forward observer officer, forward observer NCO, forward observer aidman(I don´t know good translation for this), RATELO)
    3xInfantry platoon
    Platoon HQ (Platoon leader, platoon 2iC, RATELO, medic)
    3xInfantry squad (squad leader, machine gun buddy pair, anti-tank buddy pair, rifle buddy pair(holds assistant squad leader).
    Anti-tank team(3 anti-tank gunners with APILAS or MBT-LAW one of them is NCO)
    Forward observer team (Forward observer team (Forward observer officer, forward observer NCO, forward observer aidman(I don´t know good translation for this), RATELO)
    Service platoon
    Platoon HQ (Don't know its internal make up)
    Delivery squad (Don't know its internal make up)
    Maintenance squad (Don't know its internal make up)
    Medical squad (Don't know its internal make up)
    Kitchen squad (Don't know its internal make up)
    I wonder how effective these would be in real situation...

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsJÄÄK Korte View Post
    Skimming this thread and looking internet makes me feel inadequate, as finnish army lacks pretty much any machine guns outside infatry squads. Also our direct HE capability is nearly zero, but propably amount of indirect tubes more than makes up that. And propably lack of direct HE and MGs is due to nature of terrain and not lack of funding.

    Here I show M/05 Jaeger battalion and company compositions to best of my knowledge.

    ...

    I wonder how effective these would be in real situation...
    Who do you see your enemy being and how are they organised?

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsJÄÄK Korte View Post
    I wonder how effective these would be in real situation...
    Looks an awful lot like a late World War 2 TO&E, quite traditional.
    # Its AT capability is mostly penny-packed and portable.
    # Sniper teams belong to battalion level imho, into a sniper platoon for training and as a pool for the whole battalion.

    The really interesting things are hidden behind the TO&E...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Who do you see your enemy being and how are they organised?
    I forgot to specify anything.
    Whaterver Motor infatry/tank divisions/brigades of former Leningrad Military district has as Russia is seen main threat, be it so obscure possiblity. but I am also interested in this battalion would fare in defence missions against, for example battlegroup/brigade sized formation from West Europe (includes Great Britain) or US.

    Lets assume that this M/05 battalion is one produced by peacetime Pori Brigade, which means battalion's infatry, anti-tank and recon squads move around in AMVs and other squad types are transported by XA-2xx and XA-18x series vehicles or trucks. Many wheeled death traps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    # Sniper teams belong to battalion level imho, into a sniper platoon for training and as a pool for the whole battalion.
    For reasons unknown to me, finnish army doesn't have snipers at battalion level or higher, unless you count designated marksman of recon squads.
    Maybe it is tradionalism or something.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsJÄÄK Korte View Post
    For reasons unknown to me, finnish army doesn't have snipers at battalion level or higher, unless you count designated marksman of recon squads.
    Maybe it is tradionalism or something.
    Well, sniping was important in 39/40, but that were basically good shots with iron sighted bolt action hunting rifles. They shot at distances well below what snipers understand to be their realm nowadays.

    If the Finnish army hadn't Valmet AK-derivative assault rifles, I'd guess that they expect more regular infantry to camo and hunt like Snipers did in WW2.


    Btw, I understand that Finnish infantry is quite obsessed with mines, both AT and claymore types?
    It kinda reminds me of the military thought between 1900 and 1914; defensive strength was discovered and armies strived to exploit it also in the offence by moving and then expecting (counter-)attacks.
    To discover an offensive strength and to apply that one in the defence as well as in offence always looked more convincing to me.


    Btw, I remember having seen a basic Jaeger Bde TO&E on an official Finnish website about a year ago. At that time I was negatively surprised at the low survivability of arty/mortars and ATGWs (towed 120mm, TOW).


    edit: Google yielded this: http://orbat.com/site/toe/issues/I3/...20FinnJB90.pdf
    Last edited by Fuchs; 06-22-2011 at 09:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    Well, sniping was important in 39/40, but that were basically good shots with iron sighted bolt action hunting rifles. They shot at distances well below what snipers understand to be their realm nowadays.
    Due to terrain, ranges where finnish snipers engage their targets, depending on wether they are armed with dragunov, 7.62 Tkiv 85 or TRG-42, at ranges between 300-800 meters. I understand that this is shorter than what western snipers usually engage?

    Btw, I understand that Finnish infantry is quite obsessed with mines, both AT and claymore types?
    On top of head I can think of four types of mine usage.
    1.On defence, or when more offensive part of army sets up camp for resting period, each squad of force makes up so called quick mine field. it is made of 10-12 blast AT-mines and it purpose is to stop enemy AFVs so squad/platoon AT-weapons have easiers time hitting them, also to generaly stall their movement and force them to make their "game moves" If there is enough time blast AT-mines are removed and engineer assemble more elaborate minefield
    2.Claymores and other AP-mines will be used to protect any permanentish installation.
    3. And last I have heard of plans mining roads at certaing intervals and leaving snipers to watch them.

    I continue my answers in following post(s).

  8. #248
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    Sniper combat ranges will likely be much smaller than 800 m on Finnish terrain.

    Western snipers intend to snipe at 300-700 metres afaik with anything above being exceptions of little relevance* (not the least because competent, careful infantry will rarely be spotted at more than 300 m for more than a few seconds).

    Sniping in forest-dominated terrain should include a lot of shooting through wood cover (not easily possible with 7.62x39) and generally sniping at partially exposed targets (heel, shoulder, helmet) at less than 150 metres.

    The one exception for long-range sniping might be shooting over lakes.

    ------

    About mines:

    AT mines are very versatile, especially the blast types.
    A quick road barrier can be a ladder with several AT mines on it, and with metal bars connecting the mines so that a vehicle driving over the ladder would 100% initiate the charges. This ladder can lay alongside the road for most time and be pulled across it with a line of cord in seconds as a quick barrier (also good for ambushing). This was very popular in WW2 as a countermeasure to surprises by armoured reconnaissance vehicles and vanguards.

    AT mines can also be used for demolishing, including opening or destroying buildings as well as making objects useless for an advancing invader.

    AT mines can also be used to destroy tanks whose crews have abandoned the vehicle or were killed by HEAT penetrations.

    An abundance of AT mines generally forces an element of fear and caution on the enemy whenever he advances (moves).


    About AP mines; they can be used well for ambush, counter-pursuit and as a counter to counterattacks. Again, most effect is psychological. They can also slow down a low and help to make AT mine fields more difficult to clear.
    I never understood why the German army didn't introduce claymore-type mines. They're still legal even after the mine ban (because of the remote control).


    edit:
    *: In fact, sniping at longer ranges reminds me of the Italian fighter pilots' fetish for aerobatics. They pretended it was the key art of their trade, but it marginal relevance was known to their predecessors and proved again during the next time the #### had hit the fan.
    The application on an anecdotal basis did not change that.
    Last edited by Fuchs; 06-22-2011 at 11:24 AM.

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    As for attacking and defending.
    Finnish army is divided in to two parts: regional/territorial forces and operative forces.
    Differences:
    Operative:Newer equipment, more military grade motorvehicles, have most AFV, younger reservist, higher professional to reservist ratio, no specified area of operations.
    Territorial:Older equipment, mostly civilian vehicles, have some AFVs, fewer carreer soldiers, defined area of operation.

    Objective is to use territorial forces to deplete attackers formations, while operative formations are used in well timed (counter-)attacks to destroy or defeat weakened enemy, or atleast this how it is on the paper.
    Btw, I remember having seen a basic Jaeger Bde TO&E on an official Finnish website about a year ago. At that time I was negatively surprised at the low survivability of arty/mortars and ATGWs (towed 120mm, TOW).
    There are two jaeger brigade 90 left on wartime rosters.
    I wonder where he got that information, because when I tried to find info in finnish for JGB90 with cats and dogs I found nothing whist there can be found organizations fo Infantry brigade 80, Jaeger brigade 05, armoured battlegroup, mechanized battlegroup and new territorial battlegroup

    On survivability.
    There are plans to replace towed mortar company with AMOS platoon in two southern jaeger brigade 05 and northern Jaeger brigade have their heavy mortars mounted in NA-122 all terrain vehicles.
    Maybe it somewhat compensates their (indirect units) immobility and low survivability to use larger and dispersed formations.

    Also finland has armoured artillery but not much. two armoured battlegroups have battalion of armoured howitzers and there are some separate selfpropelled artillery groups directly under corps.
    At the moment only mounted ATGM system I know of is X number of TOWs mouted on NA-110 ATTV and they are used as corps level anti-tank unit.

  10. #250
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    It makes sense to me that the Finnish Army would use reserve or territorial units for defensive operations and the regular units for offensive ones. However, once the situation becomes "fluid" both components would need to be capable of both types of operations. The distinction between the two components of the Army would become blurred once a war really starts going on in earnest. The original assumptions of a war plan would fall all apart under the pressure of events. Adapt, adjust, improvise.

    My family once lived near the Baltic Sea, Danzig and Stockholm, but it was two and three centuries ago, a long time ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    It makes sense to me that the Finnish Army would use reserve or territorial units for defensive operations and the regular units for offensive ones. However, once the situation becomes "fluid" both components would need to be capable of both types of operations. The distinction between the two components of the Army would become blurred once a war really starts going on in earnest. The original assumptions of a war plan would fall all apart under the pressure of events.

    My family once lived near the Baltic Sea, Danzig and Stockholm, but it was two and three centuries ago, a long time ago.
    All most all of finnish wartime units of ground forces are mobilised from reserves. Peacetime units exist for purposes of training, and some other things.

    Also. Yes it is inevitable that at some point regional force have to try counter-attack.

    "Adapt, adjust, improvise." <-I hope that we heed this at event of war and make at least self propelled recoilless guns (if old blackies are still in rosters), selfpropelled mortars and selfpropelled ATGMs out of civilian tracktors, jeeps/land rovers, and light trucks for regional forces.

    I glad though that we bought 147 mt-lbs from sweden and XA-series are going to through extensive maintenance to continue their service time.
    FDFs mobilization strength has gone from 500000->250000, atleast one good thing I can think concercing it is that even if not all ground forces can be moved around in APCs maybe they can be given atleast military grade trucks instead of civilian tractors/vans/other cars, if amount of personel is lowered but equipment numbers stay same.

    For the end as anectodish. I have heard that at beginning of nineties FDF mobilization plans still had horses on their equipment rosters and some second line (or would that be third) units would have been armed with WWII vintage small arms.

  12. #252
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    Default Mobility and the seasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsJÄÄK Korte View Post
    Maybe it somewhat compensates their (indirect units) immobility and low survivability to use larger and dispersed formations.
    I am a civilian with no military background so apologies if the answer to my question is too simple, but how is differing mobility during the three seasons (snow, mud, and other) dealt with vis-à-vis the organization of units? Does the organization of units optimize for one season, compromise for all three seasons, or are there changes in configuration as the seasons change?
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

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    By the way on question on platoon leader and platoon 2iC in mech/armoured infatry platoons. I am interested in which one is more common in the world:
    1.Platoon leader dismounts, 2iC is commander of one of the IFVs
    2.Vice versa
    3.Other

    Asking this because in our CV90 mounted armoured infatry platoon PL dismounted and 2iC commanded the 1.Squad's vehicle and he commanded platoon's vehicles while PL led dismounts into combat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ganulv View Post
    I am a civilian with no military background so apologies if the answer to my question is too simple, but how is differing mobility during the three seasons (snow, mud, and other) dealt with vis-à-vis the organization of units? Does the organization of units optimize for one season, compromise for all three seasons, or are there changes in configuration as the seasons change?
    I did my military service in southern Finland where winter snows have become thinner and thinner, only optimisation we did was to wear warmer clothes. and places we practiced warranted no skis because there was so little snow.
    In northern parts of Finland you have to use skiis to move around and in north manouvre units use thisthis as motor transport to move around it has lower ground pressure than average human male. And mortars and arty need TNT for their firing positions
    So cut long story short it is more about equipment than organisation.

    PS.I would like to see someday IFV supported attack by ski troops, as finnish BMP-2s and CV90s have storage place for squad's skiis.

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    Snowmobiles as winter motorcycle of couriers is a neat thing, and a snow mobile can tow several Skijäger at once.

    In hilly regions it also makes sense to combine ski with snow shoes.
    Snow shoes also make sense in bogs; back when people were harvesting turf from bogs for heating houses, even the horses got snow shoe-like equipment. Another application for snow shoes is navigating very dense or uneven forests in winter or snowy terrain with lots of ditches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    Snow shoes also make sense in bogs ...
    Herr Fuchs is reminding me of the errors of my feckless youth, when I was lost in a bog at Fort Wainwright, Alaska. My snowshoes got me out of it, though. It was in December of 1982.

    Though I once was lost at Fort Wainwright, I found SWC and talked to Ken about METT-TC ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    Snowmobiles as winter motorcycle of couriers is a neat thing, and a snow mobile can tow several Skijäger at once.

    In hilly regions it also makes sense to combine ski with snow shoes.
    Snow shoes also make sense in bogs; back when people were harvesting turf from bogs for heating houses, even the horses got snow shoe-like equipment. Another application for snow shoes is navigating very dense or uneven forests in winter or snowy terrain with lots of ditches.
    I have heard from finnish forums that if one had to choose between skis and snowshoes as combat equipmet, one would be better of with skis.
    Also I don't know if we have used snow mobiles to tow people but in northern parts they use that finnish bandwagn variant to tow people.
    Picture here.
    Last edited by PsJÄÄK Korte; 06-22-2011 at 07:48 PM. Reason: More info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    In hilly regions it also makes sense to combine ski with snow shoes.
    Yes, I was curious as to what extent the Finnish military makes use of snowshoes. In the region of the U.S. where I live off track travel is impossible to accomplish at any speed without skis or snowshoes for at least three months of the year. Skis are the faster option when possible, but given the state of the land cover (mostly thick second-growth forest) and the relief (hilly to steep, with ice beginning before 4,000 ft.) ski travel is largely relegated to trails. In the U.S. the success of the ski-borne Finns during the Winter War is relatively well known but snowshoes are never mentioned in the context of the conflict. Are they simply left out of the narrative, or is the landscape of northern Finland so open as to be widely traversable by ski?
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

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    The Russians have developed many interesting / crazy vehicles for arctic warfare over time...

    http://www.battlefield.ru/en/article...s.html?start=2

  20. #260
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    We had snow mobiles at Fort Wainwright in '82. Not lots of them, but some. We trained on both skis and snowshoes. I don't believe the snow mobiles were TO&E, perhaps MTOE.

    The other thing I learned is that the personality conflicts between guys in a small Arctic tent in -20 F weather can become murderous. We had an active duty USMC ANGLICO team with us during our training there. Great guys, true professionals. With them was a Marine Lance-Corporal who was a reservist. The ANGLICO guys from Pendleton gave him so much crap at first about his rapid promotion to L-C that at first I felt sorry for him. After three days in an Arctic tent of listening to his snooty and wise-ass remarks I was ready to give the active-duty Marines my .45 and a loaded magazine.

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