Infantry Unit Tactics, Tasks, Weapons, and Organization

[Fuchs]

For reasons unknown to me, finnish army doesn't have snipers at battalion level or higher, unless you count designated marksman of recon squads.
Maybe it is tradionalism or something.

Well, sniping was important in 39/40, but that were basically good shots with iron sighted bolt action hunting rifles. They shot at distances well below what snipers understand to be their realm nowadays.

If the Finnish army hadn't Valmet AK-derivative assault rifles, I'd guess that they expect more regular infantry to camo and hunt like Snipers did in WW2.


Btw, I understand that Finnish infantry is quite obsessed with mines, both AT and claymore types?
It kinda reminds me of the military thought between 1900 and 1914; defensive strength was discovered and armies strived to exploit it also in the offence by moving and then expecting (counter-)attacks.
To discover an offensive strength and to apply that one in the defence as well as in offence always looked more convincing to me.


Btw, I remember having seen a basic Jaeger Bde TO&E on an official Finnish website about a year ago. At that time I was negatively surprised at the low survivability of arty/mortars and ATGWs (towed 120mm, TOW).


edit: Google yielded this: http://orbat.com/site/toe/issues/I3/...20FinnJB90.pdf

[PsJÄÄK Korte]

Well, sniping was important in 39/40, but that were basically good shots with iron sighted bolt action hunting rifles. They shot at distances well below what snipers understand to be their realm nowadays.

Due to terrain, ranges where finnish snipers engage their targets, depending on wether they are armed with dragunov, 7.62 Tkiv 85 or TRG-42, at ranges between 300-800 meters. I understand that this is shorter than what western snipers usually engage?

Btw, I understand that Finnish infantry is quite obsessed with mines, both AT and claymore types?

On top of head I can think of four types of mine usage.
1.On defence, or when more offensive part of army sets up camp for resting period, each squad of force makes up so called quick mine field. it is made of 10-12 blast AT-mines and it purpose is to stop enemy AFVs so squad/platoon AT-weapons have easiers time hitting them, also to generaly stall their movement and force them to make their "game moves" If there is enough time blast AT-mines are removed and engineer assemble more elaborate minefield
2.Claymores and other AP-mines will be used to protect any permanentish installation.
3. And last I have heard of plans mining roads at certaing intervals and leaving snipers to watch them.

I continue my answers in following post(s).

[Fuchs]

Sniper combat ranges will likely be much smaller than 800 m on Finnish terrain.

Western snipers intend to snipe at 300-700 metres afaik with anything above being exceptions of little relevance* (not the least because competent, careful infantry will rarely be spotted at more than 300 m for more than a few seconds).

Sniping in forest-dominated terrain should include a lot of shooting through wood cover (not easily possible with 7.62x39) and generally sniping at partially exposed targets (heel, shoulder, helmet) at less than 150 metres.

The one exception for long-range sniping might be shooting over lakes.

------

About mines:

AT mines are very versatile, especially the blast types.
A quick road barrier can be a ladder with several AT mines on it, and with metal bars connecting the mines so that a vehicle driving over the ladder would 100% initiate the charges. This ladder can lay alongside the road for most time and be pulled across it with a line of cord in seconds as a quick barrier (also good for ambushing). This was very popular in WW2 as a countermeasure to surprises by armoured reconnaissance vehicles and vanguards.

AT mines can also be used for demolishing, including opening or destroying buildings as well as making objects useless for an advancing invader.

AT mines can also be used to destroy tanks whose crews have abandoned the vehicle or were killed by HEAT penetrations.

An abundance of AT mines generally forces an element of fear and caution on the enemy whenever he advances (moves).


About AP mines; they can be used well for ambush, counter-pursuit and as a counter to counterattacks. Again, most effect is psychological. They can also slow down a low and help to make AT mine fields more difficult to clear.
I never understood why the German army didn't introduce claymore-type mines. They're still legal even after the mine ban (because of the remote control).


edit:
*: In fact, sniping at longer ranges reminds me of the Italian fighter pilots' fetish for aerobatics. They pretended it was the key art of their trade, but it marginal relevance was known to their predecessors and proved again during the next time the #### had hit the fan.
The application on an anecdotal basis did not change that.

[PsJÄÄK Korte]

As for attacking and defending.
Finnish army is divided in to two parts: regional/territorial forces and operative forces.
Differences:
Operative:Newer equipment, more military grade motorvehicles, have most AFV, younger reservist, higher professional to reservist ratio, no specified area of operations.
Territorial:Older equipment, mostly civilian vehicles, have some AFVs, fewer carreer soldiers, defined area of operation.

Objective is to use territorial forces to deplete attackers formations, while operative formations are used in well timed (counter-)attacks to destroy or defeat weakened enemy, or atleast this how it is on the paper.

Btw, I remember having seen a basic Jaeger Bde TO&E on an official Finnish website about a year ago. At that time I was negatively surprised at the low survivability of arty/mortars and ATGWs (towed 120mm, TOW).

There are two jaeger brigade 90 left on wartime rosters.
I wonder where he got that information, because when I tried to find info in finnish for JGB90 with cats and dogs I found nothing whist there can be found organizations fo Infantry brigade 80, Jaeger brigade 05, armoured battlegroup, mechanized battlegroup and new territorial battlegroup

On survivability.
There are plans to replace towed mortar company with AMOS platoon in two southern jaeger brigade 05 and northern Jaeger brigade have their heavy mortars mounted in NA-122 all terrain vehicles.
Maybe it somewhat compensates their (indirect units) immobility and low survivability to use larger and dispersed formations.

Also finland has armoured artillery but not much. two armoured battlegroups have battalion of armoured howitzers and there are some separate selfpropelled artillery groups directly under corps.
At the moment only mounted ATGM system I know of is X number of TOWs mouted on NA-110 ATTV and they are used as corps level anti-tank unit.

[Pete]

It makes sense to me that the Finnish Army would use reserve or territorial units for defensive operations and the regular units for offensive ones. However, once the situation becomes "fluid" both components would need to be capable of both types of operations. The distinction between the two components of the Army would become blurred once a war really starts going on in earnest. The original assumptions of a war plan would fall all apart under the pressure of events. Adapt, adjust, improvise.

My family once lived near the Baltic Sea, Danzig and Stockholm, but it was two and three centuries ago, a long time ago.

[PsJÄÄK Korte]

It makes sense to me that the Finnish Army would use reserve or territorial units for defensive operations and the regular units for offensive ones. However, once the situation becomes "fluid" both components would need to be capable of both types of operations. The distinction between the two components of the Army would become blurred once a war really starts going on in earnest. The original assumptions of a war plan would fall all apart under the pressure of events.

My family once lived near the Baltic Sea, Danzig and Stockholm, but it was two and three centuries ago, a long time ago.

All most all of finnish wartime units of ground forces are mobilised from reserves. Peacetime units exist for purposes of training, and some other things.

Also. Yes it is inevitable that at some point regional force have to try counter-attack.

"Adapt, adjust, improvise." <-I hope that we heed this at event of war and make at least self propelled recoilless guns (if old blackies are still in rosters), selfpropelled mortars and selfpropelled ATGMs out of civilian tracktors, jeeps/land rovers, and light trucks for regional forces.

I glad though that we bought 147 mt-lbs from sweden and XA-series are going to through extensive maintenance to continue their service time.
FDFs mobilization strength has gone from 500000->250000, atleast one good thing I can think concercing it is that even if not all ground forces can be moved around in APCs maybe they can be given atleast military grade trucks instead of civilian tractors/vans/other cars, if amount of personel is lowered but equipment numbers stay same.

For the end as anectodish. I have heard that at beginning of nineties FDF mobilization plans still had horses on their equipment rosters and some second line (or would that be third) units would have been armed with WWII vintage small arms.

[ganulv]

Maybe it somewhat compensates their (indirect units) immobility and low survivability to use larger and dispersed formations.

I am a civilian with no military background so apologies if the answer to my question is too simple, but how is differing mobility during the three seasons (snow, mud, and other) dealt with vis-à-vis the organization of units? Does the organization of units optimize for one season, compromise for all three seasons, or are there changes in configuration as the seasons change?

[PsJÄÄK Korte]

I am a civilian with no military background so apologies if the answer to my question is too simple, but how is differing mobility during the three seasons (snow, mud, and other) dealt with vis-à-vis the organization of units? Does the organization of units optimize for one season, compromise for all three seasons, or are there changes in configuration as the seasons change?

I did my military service in southern Finland where winter snows have become thinner and thinner, only optimisation we did was to wear warmer clothes. and places we practiced warranted no skis because there was so little snow.
In northern parts of Finland you have to use skiis to move around and in north manouvre units use thisthis as motor transport to move around it has lower ground pressure than average human male. And mortars and arty need TNT for their firing positions
So cut long story short it is more about equipment than organisation.

PS.I would like to see someday IFV supported attack by ski troops, as finnish BMP-2s and CV90s have storage place for squad's skiis.

[Fuchs]

Snowmobiles as winter motorcycle of couriers is a neat thing, and a snow mobile can tow several Skijäger at once.

In hilly regions it also makes sense to combine ski with snow shoes.
Snow shoes also make sense in bogs; back when people were harvesting turf from bogs for heating houses, even the horses got snow shoe-like equipment. Another application for snow shoes is navigating very dense or uneven forests in winter or snowy terrain with lots of ditches.

[Pete]

Snow shoes also make sense in bogs ...

Herr Fuchs is reminding me of the errors of my feckless youth, when I was lost in a bog at Fort Wainwright, Alaska. My snowshoes got me out of it, though. It was in December of 1982.

Though I once was lost at Fort Wainwright, I found SWC and talked to Ken about METT-TC ...

[PsJÄÄK Korte]

Snowmobiles as winter motorcycle of couriers is a neat thing, and a snow mobile can tow several Skijäger at once.

In hilly regions it also makes sense to combine ski with snow shoes.
Snow shoes also make sense in bogs; back when people were harvesting turf from bogs for heating houses, even the horses got snow shoe-like equipment. Another application for snow shoes is navigating very dense or uneven forests in winter or snowy terrain with lots of ditches.

I have heard from finnish forums that if one had to choose between skis and snowshoes as combat equipmet, one would be better of with skis.
Also I don't know if we have used snow mobiles to tow people but in northern parts they use that finnish bandwagn variant to tow people.
Picture here.

[ganulv]

In hilly regions it also makes sense to combine ski with snow shoes.

Yes, I was curious as to what extent the Finnish military makes use of snowshoes. In the region of the U.S. where I live off track travel is impossible to accomplish at any speed without skis or snowshoes for at least three months of the year. Skis are the faster option when possible, but given the state of the land cover (mostly thick second-growth forest) and the relief (hilly to steep, with ice beginning before 4,000 ft.) ski travel is largely relegated to trails. In the U.S. the success of the ski-borne Finns during the Winter War is relatively well known but snowshoes are never mentioned in the context of the conflict. Are they simply left out of the narrative, or is the landscape of northern Finland so open as to be widely traversable by ski?

[Fuchs]

The Russians have developed many interesting / crazy vehicles for arctic warfare over time...

http://www.battlefield.ru/en/article...s.html?start=2

[Pete]

We had snow mobiles at Fort Wainwright in '82. Not lots of them, but some. We trained on both skis and snowshoes. I don't believe the snow mobiles were TO&E, perhaps MTOE.

The other thing I learned is that the personality conflicts between guys in a small Arctic tent in -20 F weather can become murderous. We had an active duty USMC ANGLICO team with us during our training there. Great guys, true professionals. With them was a Marine Lance-Corporal who was a reservist. The ANGLICO guys from Pendleton gave him so much crap at first about his rapid promotion to L-C that at first I felt sorry for him. After three days in an Arctic tent of listening to his snooty and wise-ass remarks I was ready to give the active-duty Marines my .45 and a loaded magazine.

[PsJÄÄK Korte]

the landscape of northern Finland so open as to be widely traversable by ski?

Northern Finland becomes more open after certain lattitude.
I just skimmed on finnish forum topic about skis vs snowshoes and found out following info:
Utti jaeger regiment once tested tested snow shoes, and while it was found by parajaegers of regiment.
Also it was concluded, both by parajaegers of regiment and reservist forum writers, That few are situtations in Fnland where snowshoes are better that skis.