SMALL WARS COUNCIL
Go Back   Small Wars Council > The Small Wars Community of Interest > RFIs & Members' Projects

RFIs & Members' Projects Looking for something? Float your question here, and see what the community has to say in response.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-30-2009   #41
ODB
Council Member
 
ODB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: TN
Posts: 278
Default Additionally

I have been curious the past few days about the number of colleges teaching COIN courses, who are the teachers? Do they have guest speakers? How can get on board to be one of the guest speakers?

Not questioning the ability of academics, but sometimes find it interesting that the so called experts have no practical experiences. Is this view point to harsh on academics?
__________________
ODB

Exchange with an Iraqi soldier during FID:

Why did you not clear your corner?

Because we are on a base and it is secure.
ODB is offline  
Old 01-30-2009   #42
Ken White
Council Member
 
Ken White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,060
Default Not considering some of the things I've seen

here and there on the ol' internet -- not too harsh, that is...
Ken White is offline  
Old 01-30-2009   #43
John T. Fishel
Council Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Rancho La Espada, Blanchard, OK
Posts: 1,065
Default Civilian practitioners and academics

Cavguy, I nominate Ambassadors Deane Hinton, Tom Pickering, and Ed Corr, who, with their MILGP commanders and several Southcom CINCs, helped the Govt of El Salvador defeat the FMLN. Their civilian "counterparts" Presidents Jose Napoleon Duarte and Alfredo Cristiani (although he worked with Amb Bill Walker) were also outstanding civilian practitioners of COIN and FID/SFA.

ODB, I'm one of the guys who teaches a course on Small Wars/LIC which is COIN heavy. Next semester (Fall 09) I have funding for guest speakers. If you are really interested send me a resume by PM or email.

Cheers

JohnT
John T. Fishel is offline  
Old 01-30-2009   #44
Cavguy
Council Member
 
Cavguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Posts: 1,127
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John T. Fishel View Post
Cavguy, I nominate Ambassadors Deane Hinton, Tom Pickering, and Ed Corr, who, with their MILGP commanders and several Southcom CINCs, helped the Govt of El Salvador defeat the FMLN. Their civilian "counterparts" Presidents Jose Napoleon Duarte and Alfredo Cristiani (although he worked with Amb Bill Walker) were also outstanding civilian practitioners of COIN and FID/SFA.

ODB, I'm one of the guys who teaches a course on Small Wars/LIC which is COIN heavy. Next semester (Fall 09) I have funding for guest speakers. If you are really interested send me a resume by PM or email.

Cheers

JohnT

Excellent!
__________________
"A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
Who is Cavguy?
Cavguy is offline  
Old 01-30-2009   #45
William F. Owen
Council Member
 
William F. Owen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
Posts: 3,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw View Post
Gian and WILF...
While I too enjoy an occassional perusal of St Carl's treatment on war, we might consider the context of the request... Soph in College with no personal reference point for the nature of warfare.
He's a Soph. Good enough. CvC is the best guide to understanding conflict in the round. COIN is War, therefore understanding it's nature is essential, to my mind.

Quote:
Directing him to Carl first is akin to telling a young child to learn the history of the Jewish nation by picking up a copy of the Old Testament and following the story.
Worked for me!

Quote:
I think its a poor place to direct a neophyte "first"...
There is a standard, and it' not easy. If you know a better book, that explains the roots and dynamics of conflict better than CvC, then I am all ears.
__________________
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
William F. Owen is offline  
Old 01-30-2009   #46
wm
Council Member
 
wm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: On the Lunatic Fringe
Posts: 1,237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
There is a standard, and it' not easy. If you know a better book, that explains the roots and dynamics of conflict better than CvC, then I am all ears.
How about Machiavelli--The Art of War and The Prince available together here in one volume.
__________________
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
The greatest educational dogma is also its greatest fallacy: the belief that what must be learned can necessarily be taught. Sydney J. Harris
wm is offline  
Old 01-30-2009   #47
William F. Owen
Council Member
 
William F. Owen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
Posts: 3,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wm View Post
How about Machiavelli--The Art of War and The Prince available together here in one volume.
Good points. I really wouldn't bother with Mack's Art of War, unless you are really interested in Renaissance Military Thought. Some of the homo-erotic observations and the dismissal of gun powder, make it a hard going.

The Prince is certainly useful, but again not required. It was written as an advertising document or basically a CV, for Mack to get back into Politics and while very insightful, is not really going to add that much.

IMO, and many other folks, CvC is required reading if you going to study any form of conflict. Warfare has few if any standard works, but CvC is as close as we currently have.
__________________
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
William F. Owen is offline  
Old 01-30-2009   #48
Steve Blair
Moderator
 
Steve Blair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 3,195
Default

For a good comparison and synthesis of many of the classic writers on war, "Masters of War" is really hard to beat, IMO. Handel does a great job of bringing CvC, Sun Tzu, Mach, and others together in a way that can help even the most novice thinker.
__________________
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Steve Blair is offline  
Old 01-30-2009   #49
William F. Owen
Council Member
 
William F. Owen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
Posts: 3,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
For a good comparison and synthesis of many of the classic writers on war, "Masters of War" is really hard to beat, IMO. Handel does a great job of bringing CvC, Sun Tzu, Mach, and others together in a way that can help even the most novice thinker.
Concur. This is an excellent book! Good call Steve!
__________________
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
William F. Owen is offline  
Old 01-30-2009   #50
Steve Blair
Moderator
 
Steve Blair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 3,195
Default

I'm actually surprised it isn't mentioned more often. I've found it an invaluable starting point for many people trying to get their minds wrapped around strategic concepts.
__________________
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Steve Blair is offline  
Old 01-30-2009   #51
William F. Owen
Council Member
 
William F. Owen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
Posts: 3,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
I'm actually surprised it isn't mentioned more often. I've found it an invaluable starting point for many people trying to get their minds wrapped around strategic concepts.
As concerns "Strategic Concepts," I would also strongly recommend this by Colin Gray. It is excellent and I clearly draws a line between the three subjects, which seem to cause so much confusion here.
__________________
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
William F. Owen is offline  
Old 01-31-2009   #52
AmericanPride
Council Member
 
AmericanPride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: "Turn left at Greenland." - Ringo Starr
Posts: 964
Default

For beginners, I'd recommend Insurgency and Terrorism: From Revolution to Apocalypse by O'Neill. IMO, it's very simple and easy to understand, and while I disagree with many of his definitions (and consequently the concepts, how they interact with one another, and his conclusions), it's a good, first step until jumping from this cliff.
__________________
When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot
AmericanPride is offline  
Old 01-31-2009   #53
SethB
Council Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: CenTex
Posts: 222
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ODB View Post
I have been curious the past few days about the number of colleges teaching COIN courses, who are the teachers? Do they have guest speakers? How can get on board to be one of the guest speakers?

Not questioning the ability of academics, but sometimes find it interesting that the so called experts have no practical experiences. Is this view point to harsh on academics?
I took an undergraduate capstone seminar with Yoav Gortzak. He was in the IDF for a few years in the 1990s and that gave him experience and perspective. He had some interesting stories.

We also had a Cavalry Scout who was at the same OCS board as I and a Marine 8541.

Interesting class.
SethB is offline  
Old 02-03-2009   #54
Pattonmat89
Council Member
 
Pattonmat89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Atlanta/Middle Georgia
Posts: 10
Thumbs up Thank y'all

I'd like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread, and all the suggestions that you've made. I now have some interesting things to read, and some new stuff to add to my to-be-read list.

Just to clear up a few things:

1. I asked for this because I wanted something to read, about a subject that I think is relevant to current military affairs. In other words, this is a pleasure read. Yes, I have strange ideas of pleasure.

2. I am actually a freshman, not a sophomore. So I'm even younger than you thought I was.

3. I have On War, though I have the Rapoport translation, not the Paret. Ah, well.

Any way, thanks.
__________________
"Don't discuss yourself, for you are bound to lose; if you belittle yourself, you are believed; if you praise yourself, you are disbelieved." -Michel de Montaigne

"I have this personal rule about not starting flame wars with people who ride around in battleplates." -Schlock Mercenary, May 21, 2003
Pattonmat89 is offline  
Old 02-04-2009   #55
CR6
Council Member
 
CR6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: TX
Posts: 181
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattonmat89 View Post

3. I have On War, though I have the Rapoport translation, not the Paret. Ah, well.
You can access Graham's original English translation here at Professor Christopher Bassford's excellent Clausewitz homepage. The ISBN for the Paret/Howard version (in paperback) is 9780691018546. You should be able to get it at your school's library (at least through interlibrary loan).

Bassford considers Rappaport's edition (which is an abridgement of Graham's translation) "seriously defective" for the following reason:

Rapoport approached On War with considerable philosophical sophistication. He also had a set of political biases, particularly against the nation-state system, which he considered obsolete. These rendered his analysis rather unrealistic. (4) He rejected war as a legitimate tool of state policy, arguing that Clausewitz's definition of war as an extension of politics meant that "peace is the continuation of struggle by other means."

Rapoport argued that this unfortunate and unnecessary struggle needed no justification in Clausewitz's view, not only because the Prussian writer had seen it as fundamental to the human condition but also because his own professional advancement had depended on it. Rapoport appreciated Clausewitz in terms of his historical contribution, but he sought to discredit what he called the "neo-Clausewitzian" school of modern strategists. (5)


(excerpted from Bassford's Clausewitz in English, available for free here.

Ditch the Rapoport version. It's not a faithful translation.
__________________
"Law cannot limit what physics makes possible." Humanitarian Apsects of Airpower (papers of Frederick L. Anderson, Hoover Institution, Stanford University)
CR6 is offline  
Old 02-04-2009   #56
jmm99
Council Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,021
Default Patton,

don't throw Rapaport's edition in the garbage quite yet - if it's the same as mine (Penguin 1968), which was a textbook at the U of Mich back in those days when Rapoport taught there.

Rapoport wrote a 70 page introduction (criticized by Bassford), but otherwise used the "New and Revised Edition (edited by Col. F.N. Meade) of Col. J.J. Graham's Translation", which goes back to 1908 - included almost all of Vol I, omitted Vol II, and included only 2/3 of Book 8 (part of Vol III).

Rapoport's interest was MAD, etc., and his introduction and endnotes represent one view from the 60's on the philosophies underlying war and the strategies underlying nuclear warfare. Rather a period piece keyed to part of CvC - not likely a collector's item, but I haven't checked. Reading the intro is good nostalgia for old men reliving the verbal battles of their youth.

Rapoport's Wiki is here - a bit to the left of the political spectrum, one might say.

Last edited by jmm99; 02-04-2009 at 05:40 AM.
jmm99 is offline  
Old 03-09-2009   #57
Yank in Germany
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9
Default Some Background

Don't confuse radical Islam and Afghanistan with COIN. Insurgency/terrorism is a tactic used by a weaker force against a stronger force. A few months ago I wrote a survey of COIN theory to include Galula, Thompson and others.
I enclosed it and would welcome any comments.
Attached Files
File Type: doc Urbanek MH530 Long Paper.doc (114.5 KB, 287 views)
Yank in Germany is offline  
Old 03-09-2009   #58
William F. Owen
Council Member
 
William F. Owen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The State of Partachia, at the eastern end of the Mediterranean
Posts: 3,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yank in Germany View Post
Don't confuse radical Islam and Afghanistan with COIN. Insurgency/terrorism is a tactic used by a weaker force against a stronger force. A few months ago I wrote a survey of COIN theory to include Galula, Thompson and others.
I enclosed it and would welcome any comments.
I don't think anyone here is confused as to the fact issue that Insurgency/terrorism is merely a tactical or operational form.

Interesting paper. I've read it, and will keep it - which is rare! - I can see why you cite Nagl, but I feel he is fundamentally wrong, about both the UK in Malaya, and the US in Vietnam.
__________________
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
William F. Owen is offline  
Old 10-05-2013   #59
SWJ Blog
Council Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 10,795
Default Gangs, Slums, Megacities and the Utility of Population-Centric COIN

Gangs, Slums, Megacities and the Utility of Population-Centric COIN

Entry Excerpt:



--------
Read the full post and make any comments at the SWJ Blog.
This forum is a feed only and is closed to user comments.
SWJ Blog is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
books, coin

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
French & US COIN and Galula (merged thread) Jedburgh Training & Education 49 09-18-2016 10:54 PM
Reading on COIN in Afghanistan: a place to start davidbfpo OEF - Afghanistan 13 03-10-2014 06:30 PM
Seeking USMC DIRINT Reading Lists for '03 & '06 c_warner RFIs & Members' Projects 0 04-24-2012 09:25 PM
Teach Your Organization the Basics of Counterinsurgency: COIN OPD/NCOPD Instruction Cavguy Training & Education 0 04-21-2009 04:00 PM
COIN & The Media (catch all) Jedburgh Media, Information & Cyber Warriors 79 02-28-2009 11:55 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9. ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Registered Users are solely responsible for their messages.
Operated by, and site design 2005-2009, Small Wars Foundation