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  1. #1
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Marc, all, is it time for the invention of another field to supplant Anthropology in the field of military matters? My MA is in International Relations, which was "invented" to supplant political science in the field of post-WWII nation-state relations. I see so many interdisciplinary PhDs these days that you'd think some ambitious fellows could find a school interested in producing some PhDs who saw war as a "normal" state of human existence and would be interested in studying what makes people fight and what makes them decide to stop fighting.

    It seems to me that COIN is the art/science of determining how to make a person/culture lay down arms, or decide not to pick them up in the first place.

    You'd need to call it something, though.....

  2. #2
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi 120mm,

    This is a really good question - so good, in fact, that I snipped it out to create a new thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Marc, all, is it time for the invention of another field to supplant Anthropology in the field of military matters? My MA is in International Relations, which was "invented" to supplant political science in the field of post-WWII nation-state relations.
    Anthropology, in many ways, started as a Science of Humanity (Anthropos - Mankind; logos - "authoritative word" or science) for some (e.g. Wilson) and as a Science of Culture for others. Both of these projects were, for all intents and purposes, highly "inter-disciplinary" and neither, to my mind, has ever been completed despite several really promising lines of research.

    While I am not really an historian of the discipline, I leave that to such greats as Regna Darnell, I *think* that one of the main reasons why Anthropology has not developed these lines of research is the limits of the languages we use. For example, much of what we study is "patterns": patterns of action, patterns of thinking, etc., and the relationships between these patterns and certain other factors (e.g. environment, livelihood, technology, etc.). But we use natural languages to describe almost all of this, rather than mathematics.

    We have used mathematics in some instances, e.g. some of the early work by E.B. Tylor (e.g. On a Method of Investigating the Development of Institutions - 1888), most of the material on physical Anthropology, and some statistics in cultural Anthropology (mainly descriptive). Most of our work, however, doesn't use mathematics and this is, to my mind, a real handicap. I think that we will have to get over the disciplinary neuroses about math before we can move forward .

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    I see so many interdisciplinary PhDs these days that you'd think some ambitious fellows could find a school interested in producing some PhDs who saw war as a "normal" state of human existence and would be interested in studying what makes people fight and what makes them decide to stop fighting.

    It seems to me that COIN is the art/science of determining how to make a person/culture lay down arms, or decide not to pick them up in the first place.
    Personally, I would hold that we should treat conflict, including both sublimated conflict such as business and sports and over conflict from politics to open warfare as a natural continuum. The differing "states", probably "quasi-stable equilibria" to use an old functionalist term, would have specific perceptually (i.e. cultural) defined boundary conditions and would probably operate under different inter-culturally defined "natural laws".

    As such, COIN would be one particular engineering application of these "natural laws" in one particular state (an unstable state of "insurgency") whose counterpart would be insurgency theory (e.g. the old Maoist stuff). Each of these engineering applications could, then, profitably be examined in terms of their vector states or attempts to produce change in a particular dimension that defines the boundaries of the state (e.g. security, basic needs, social organization, etc.). If we took this line of thought forward, then the Islamist irhabi are practicing a rather different form of insurgency "engineering".

    You'd need to call it something, though.....[/quote]

    How about "Applied Interdisciplinarity" ? Actually, that's the term we are using for a new journal I'm involved in starting, and it certainly seems to capture the basic idea.

    Marc
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    "...war as a "normal" state of human existence and would be interested in studying what makes people fight and what makes them decide to stop fighting."
    That's the ticket to sell the need for more Anthropological and Sociological insight and contributions but there are strong vested interests in viewing the Military as an essentially destructive enterprise run by barbarians.

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    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Goesh,

    Quote Originally Posted by goesh View Post
    That's the ticket to sell the need for more Anthropological and Sociological insight and contributions but there are strong vested interests in viewing the Military as an essentially destructive enterprise run by barbarians.
    Unfortunate, but true. I was talking with one of my students last term about this very problem and trying to find an historical analogy that captured my thinking about why "we" (social scientists) should be involved in the current global COIN. As usual in cases like this, the discussion surrounded professional ethics and "morality" which, in turn, led to a discussion of the relative values of individual vs. corporate mysticism. I really believe it's time for someone to post the Social Scientific equivalent of Luther's 95 Theses to the doorway of PC academia.

    Marc
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    I really believe it's time for someone to post the Social Scientific equivalent of Luther's 95 Theses to the doorway of PC academia.
    Interesting, What would you include your theses, if you had the chance to write such a document?

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    Count me in for the history portion of same.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

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    Default Maslow Today - What was he on ?

    My Psychology professor on our first day circa 1982: "According to Maslow, an individual is ready to act upon the growth needs if and only if the deficiency needs are met. The biggest human tragedy is that most people simply do what they are told."

    He continued: "This form of reduced maturity is dangerous when coupled with authoritarianism and dominance, as we have learned from Saddam, Hitler, and others."

    Marc, does Maslow have a point in this thread ?

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    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Default 5 down, 90 to go...

    Hi Folks,

    Quote Originally Posted by Tc2642 View Post
    Interesting, What would you include your theses, if you had the chance to write such a document?
    Tc2642, think part of the answer to that question is in Stan's comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Reber View Post
    My Psychology professor on our first day circa 1982: "According to Maslow, an individual is ready to act upon the growth needs if and only if the deficiency needs are met. The biggest human tragedy is that most people simply do what they are told."

    He continued: "This form of reduced maturity is dangerous when coupled with authoritarianism and dominance, as we have learned from Saddam, Hitler, and others."

    Marc, does Maslow have a point in this thread ?
    Stan, I think the answer is "yes". Tc2642 asked me what I would include in such theses, and I think Maslow's ideas contain some of the answers. So, let me take a whack at 5 thesis statements.
    1. Giants exist so that people can see farther, not to crush inquiring minds.
    2. All knowledge is inherently limited and, in that sense, "false". As such, the goal of any science is not the production of "perfection" but the continual struggle to achieve it.
    3. "Proofs" that can be communicated exist only in limited components of described part of transcendental reality and should never be mistaken for transcendental "Truth".
    4. Information is a difference that makes a difference (Definition by Gregory Bateson).
    5. How we communicate defines both what we are capable of communicating and the limits of information that can be transmitted and received.
    I think I'll leave it at that for now - I have to finish editing a case study for an HRM text book .

    Marc
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  9. #9
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default edifying information

    Marc,
    Strange (well, for me anyway), that Maslow's work (in spite of any support or evidence) enjoys wide acceptance. Never really grasped that, even today.

    Norwood (required reading even today) made more sense to me. Perhaps simpler terms for those without Phds

    Norwood sounded as if he had been divorced three times (consecutively) by describing behavior as insecure, disorganized, disoriented, etc. Already begins to sound like a female was involved.

    With that, I think I'll have a beer

    Regards, Stan

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    Default Thesis Posting

    "I really believe it's time for someone to post the Social Scientific equivalent of Luther's 95 Theses to the doorway of PC academia."

    A big, fat Amen! to that. Islamic terrorists already posted their thesis on the walls of the WTC and the Pentagon using jet liners.

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    Hi all,
    This looks like an interesting thread, so I signed up to add to it. I did my undergraduate work in anthropology and completed a year of doctoral work before my health shut me down. Violence and warfare are primary interests of mine, particularly the synthesis of biological/evolutionary approaches with realistic (not dogmatic and PC) cultural anthropology. I wrote a short paper on this if anyone is interested. Violence and warfare are as "natural" as any other human behavior and the tools of the anthropologist can be very effective in studying them if the individual's approach is not tainted by their "politics." Unfortunately, those who study these subjects looking for answers and not just PC ones become pariahs in the Ivory Tower very quickly, although there are some exceptions.

    Here are some papers by peace researcher Johann van der Dennen, as well as his entire book the Origin of War: http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/dennen3.htm

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    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi GRIM,

    Quote Originally Posted by GRIM View Post
    Hi all,
    This looks like an interesting thread, so I signed up to add to it. I did my undergraduate work in anthropology and completed a year of doctoral work before my health shut me down. Violence and warfare are primary interests of mine, particularly the synthesis of biological/evolutionary approaches with realistic (not dogmatic and PC) cultural anthropology. I wrote a short paper on this if anyone is interested. Violence and warfare are as "natural" as any other human behavior and the tools of the anthropologist can be very effective in studying them if the individual's approach is not tainted by their "politics." Unfortunately, those who study these subjects looking for answers and not just PC ones become pariahs in the Ivory Tower very quickly, although there are some exceptions.

    Here are some papers by peace researcher Johann van der Dennen, as well as his entire book the Origin of War: http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/dennen3.htm

    Thanks for the link! I'd definately be interested in reading your paper as well. BTW, Jerome Barkow was my Ph.D. external and I've used a fair bit of evolutionary psychology / sociobiology in my own work. Glad to have you on board.

    Marc
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    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
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  13. #13
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Greetings Grim !

    Grim,
    Welcome !

    Like Spencer, he emphasized that warfare succeeds not so much through the genocidal elimination of rivals as by promoting superior organization and obedience to leadership: the most obedient and the tamest tribes are the strongest. "The compact [probably meaning the same as Spencer's 'cohesive'] tribes win, and the compact tribes are the tamest. Civilisation begins, because the beginning of civilisation is a military advantage" (p. 47). There was no doubt in his mind that the "strongest killed out the weakest as they could". Progress, habitually thought of as a normal fact in human society, is actually a rare occurrence among peoples. Of the existence of progress in the military art there can be no doubt, however, nor of its corollary that the most advanced will destroy the weaker, that the more compact will eliminate the scattered, and that the more civilized are the more compact (Hofstadter, 1955).
    I would be sincerely interested in your views regarding the most recent Rwandan genocides (April to July 94). I watched it and see it today in my dreams (nightmares).

    My previous post:
    The first massacres in Rwanda took place in 1959. Thereafter, almost in a regular manner, killings of the Batutsi became a habit. In the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s massacres of Batutsi were common. Between April and July 1994, over 1 million Rwandese people, mainly Batutsi and some Bahutu opposition were killed by the genocidal regime. So many people were involved in the killings. Those who planned and organised the genocide include the late President, Major General Juvenal Habyarimana, top government officials, including members of the so-called Provisional Government, the presidential Guard, the National Gendarmerie, the Rwanda Government Forces (FAR), the MRND-CDR militia (Interahamwe), local officials, and many Bahutu in the general population.
    This sounds like a poorly translated para, or a bad smoker's habit.

    Marc, please also step in as you are most welcome.

    Regards, Stan
    Last edited by Stan; 02-21-2007 at 08:51 PM. Reason: why not

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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Hi GRIM,




    Thanks for the link! I'd definately be interested in reading your paper as well. BTW, Jerome Barkow was my Ph.D. external and I've used a fair bit of evolutionary psychology / sociobiology in my own work. Glad to have you on board.

    Marc
    Thanks marct. There is really a wealth of information by Van der Dennen that would make for some very interesting discussion for those who are interested here. His letter ( http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/letter.htm ) is a fine example of the pariah status immediately granted those in this area of academia with interests in violence. While I respect the researchers he mentions, read quite a bit of their work at one point, and even contacted De Waal for advice concerning graduate work, I still am critical of the points where the more PC "side" of things seem to be talking past the issues.

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    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi GRIM,

    In the past, everybody who has propagated the notion that health is something more than just the absence of disease has turned out to be a quack. I am reasonably sure that those scholars who now claim that peace is something more than the absence of war, let me call them the ‘peace and harmony mafia’ for short, will similarly turn out to be the intellectual equivalent of quacks.
    Gods! I love it! I am definitely going to have to read more of Van der Dennen's work!

    Quote Originally Posted by GRIM View Post
    Thanks marct. There is really a wealth of information by Van der Dennen that would make for some very interesting discussion for those who are interested here. His letter ( http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/letter.htm ) is a fine example of the pariah status immediately granted those in this area of academia with interests in violence. While I respect the researchers he mentions, read quite a bit of their work at one point, and even contacted De Waal for advice concerning graduate work, I still am critical of the points where the more PC "side" of things seem to be talking past the issues.
    The radical PC side has, to my mind, conflated morality with ethics (i.e. confused immediate wish state proscriptions with the "operational rules of reality"). On a purely personal level, I dislike violence. That doesn't mean that I don't know how to defend myself should the situation arise. Maybe it's just a reflex habit inculcated in me by the Baden-Powell mythos of the Boy Scouts, but I do like to "be prepared" .

    I have long held a suspicion that the desire to find a "peaceful way of life" amongst many intellectuals is a result of a radical agnosticism that inverts Christian beliefs and emotionally "requires" them to "find" a "heaven on Earth": a requirement to find the "Peaceful Savage" to warp Rousseau's phrase.

    Marc
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  16. #16
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    On a purely personal level, I dislike violence. That doesn't mean that I don't know how to defend myself should the situation arise.
    What is that quote.... "The true warrior shuns violence but is very good at it..." something like that.
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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    What is that quote.... "The true warrior shuns violence but is very good at it..." something like that.
    I have heard that, but due to some "verstehen" issues with the statement I've amended it:

    "The true warrior is so attracted to intense, life or death violence, he doesn't want to be bothered by the piddly kind that fascinates others."

    But then, aren't we all trying to describe the same elephant?

  18. #18
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    120mm,

    Let me go back, for a sec, to the original question:

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Marc, all, is it time for the invention of another field to supplant Anthropology in the field of military matters?
    I think that the answer to that is "no"; but with some caveats. First, Anthropology has some excellent tools that can help the military immeasurably in many current situations. Second, the military is already engaged in what be called "direct ethnographic research" already and can benefit both from the analyses we can provide and, possibly more important, from our understanding of how this type of "work" changes perceptions.

    I think it is more likely that what is needed is a specific sub-discipline within Anthropology that deals with "military matters" - Brian Selmeski at the Centre for Security, Armed Forces & Society (RMC) calls it "Security Anthropology". At the present time, Anthropology is probably the most interdisciplinary "discipline" around, but there isn't an institutional base for such a sub-discipline, at least in the civilian academic environment (and it seems quite limited in the military academic environment).

    This lack of an institutional base creates all sorts of problems. First, it means that there is a great big black hole at the end of graduation - where are you going to get a job? Admittedly, you could go to work for any number of military organizations, but there are very few academic positions available. Where are you going to publish? There are certainly some journals that come to mind - Armed Forces and Society being one - but you really need a lot more to encourage the type of critical debate that produces useful theoretical models. Which brings me to the subject of conferences, as in where are the conferences for Security Anthropologists? Answer, there aren't any.

    Without this solid institutional base, you end up with a situation where many of the people who are interested in the area cannot afford to do it full time. Again, lacking that base, you also have the problem that what support does come from the military has a tendency to be focused on very precise "products" rather than on "pure research".

    Now, there already exists a network of military Anthropologists, which is the first step towards producing an academic infrastructure. In addition, most of us already speak, if nt exactly the "same" language, then at least recognizable dialectic variants of the "same" language. If we were to try and create a "new" discipline, we would have to go through all of that all over again and, believe me, that would be a real pain .

    All of which isn't to say that Anthropology, as presently constituted, is the answer . There is still, IMHO, too much PC induced "morality" <growled with acid dripping from my mouth> that permeates what passes for "professional ethics". Some of the AAA "Ethics" guidelines are, to my mind, poorly worded and appear to be based on a "morality of the day" type of thinking rather than on a set of "first principles" that allow for individual extrapolation to deal with new situations.

    For example, Article 2a of the AAA guide says:
    Anthropologists should not communicate findings secretly to some and withhold them from others.
    and article 3a an 1g state:
    Anthropologists should undertake no secret research or any research whose results cannot be freely derived and publicly reported.

    In accordance with the Association's general position on clandestine and secret research, no reports should be provided to sponsors that are not also available to the general public and, where practicable, to the population studied.
    Now, if we look at this in light of the Human Terrain Teams (HTT) that are being deployed to Iraq soon, we see an interesting problem. If I was a member of one of these teams, I could not identify any individuals involved in any particular terrorist / insurgent network unless I also informed them that they had been identified.

    This is exacerbated by article 1a
    Where research involves the acquisition of material and information transferred on the assumption of trust between persons, it is axiomatic that the rights, interests, and sensitivities of those studied must be safeguarded.
    Notice that there is an inbuilt assumption that I would be receiving the information from the same people I am studying? This assumption creates all sorts of nightmares that could have been avoided by changing "those studied" to "your informants". What if I am studying terrorist / insurgent networks in Iraq and I am getting my information from a variety of sources including both direct observation as wel as people on the ground?

    Finally, article 6 states:
    In relation with their own government and with host governments, research anthropologists should be honest and candid. They should demand assurance that they will not be required to compromise their professional responsibilities and ethics as a condition of their permission to pursue research. Specifically, no secret research, no secret reports or debriefings of any kind should be agreed to or given. If these matters are clearly understood in advance, serious complications and misunderstandings can generally be avoided.
    Now, just to make matters worse (), "advocacy" is not only allowed but encouraged. There is an often unstated assumption that "advocacy" will be for an oppressed group, since that tends to be who we work with (hey, everyone is oppressed, right? ). However, if I choose to work with a seriously oppressed group, let's say US military personnel embedded in Iraq units, I will probably be put onto the wrack.

    Now, despite my somewhat acid comments, I actually agree with the vast majority of the first principles that are embodied the AAA code of ethics (surprise!). Where I disagree is with wording and interpretation that assumes I hold both a moral, and economic, position based in academia. I, personally, believe that the MB inspired irhabi, including their AQ descendants, are an incarnation of evil and I feel no ethical compulsion to inform them about any work I may do that will lead to their downfall. And, given their penetration of North American universities, I find that the requirement to inform those I study, should I study them, to be insane. I have certainly done so with the groups I have studied in the past but this groups is, to my mind, diametrically opposed to my own personal understanding of transcendent ethics as, I believe, they have shown time and time again.

    After that rambling, tangential, diatribe, let's go back to your original question:

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Marc, all, is it time for the invention of another field to supplant Anthropology in the field of military matters?
    No. We need to rework the institutional and ethical base of Anthropology to deal with this area.

    Marc
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    Council Member Mondor's Avatar
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    Default The other other Camalot.

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    120mm,

    For example, Article 2a of the AAA guide says:
    Anthropologists should not communicate findings secretly to some and withhold them from others.
    and article 3a an 1g state:
    [INDENT]Anthropologists should undertake no secret research or any research whose results cannot be freely derived and publicly reported.


    Marc
    Sounds like the Camalot project had a few negative consequences.
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    Talking

    Hi Mondor,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondor View Post
    Sounds like the Camalot project had a few negative consequences.
    More than a few! Actually, it was one of the projects that destroyed the last vestiges of Anthropology working with the intel / military sector. David Price's articles (referenced in my SWJ article) deal with this in great detail if you are interested.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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