Nine children among 16 dead after US serviceman attacks villagers

[carl]

I wish it always worked that way. It doesn't. Extremely good people, with NO "unsavory history", before and after the "snap", can "snap" and be dangerous to themselves and to others. That's not going to be enlarged here, either publicly or via PM, but it is true.

I said almost always. I said that because I knew never to say never. But I still believe it to be mostly true. Good people don't just snap. There almost always is a history, especially in acts of criminal violence directed against others. There sure as heck is one in this case.

The fraud and misdemeanor evidence:

...is interesting to me because it shows a pre-existing disposition to criminality. Whether that has any bearing on the prosecution's case or not you know far better than I.

[jmm99]

My BLUF: I'd say that a person with proven past credibility problems (fraud, malicious manipulation, etc.; an "unsavory history") would be more likely to (1) fake an insanity defense; and (2) con people into believing that he is a good guy. That guy would have a pre-disposition to be a good liar; and, yes, a pre-disposition to criminality of the fraud type. That is why evidence of past criminal acts of a similar nature may be allowed into evidence to show a pattern - e.g., a pattern of con artistry. But, most con artists are not murderers.

What could be shaping up here may simply be an evil person (with or without a mental illness component less than insanity), who is in effect a serial killer. That type of person may show few (if any) signs of becoming a serial killer, except in hindsight.

I mentioned that type of person in this post, Measures of Men, although no one commented on him. The grand jury transcript is the source for the stories in Stars & Stripes, Transcript: Suspect killed to become 'real Marine'; and the Orange County Register, Serial killings testimony: Suspect needed to kill. Yup, presumption of innocence, and all that; but it tells why the defendant was indicted.

From the Register:

By LARRY WELBORN / THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER

The Iraq war veteran indicted in the murders of four homeless men and two others during a three-month killing spree told an Anaheim detective after his arrest in January that he joined the Marine Corps to be become a killer, according to court documents obtained by The Orange County Register.

But Itzcoatl "Izzy" Ocampo, 23, said he was disappointed when he did not see any combat during a six-month tour of duty in Iraq when he "became a truck driver instead of a killer," according to a transcript of a secret hearing of the Orange County grand jury.
...
(long review of the grand jury transcript in article)
...
Wyatt also told the grand jury that he noticed that as Ocampo was describing each of the murders during the interrogation, his demeanor would change.

"He seemed to get excited when he was talking about the actual kill," Wyatt testified. "So, I asked him if he was aroused by the act of killing."

Ocampo at first questioned the word arousal, according to the transcript, but then added, "my balls felt like they were going to explode, and I knew that I had the killer gene."

The Bales' case, so far, has nothing like this.

Regards

Mike

[carl]

My BLUF: I'd say that a person with proven past credibility problems (fraud, malicious manipulation, etc.; an "unsavory history") would be more likely to (1) fake an insanity defense; and (2) con people into believing that he is a good guy. That guy would have a pre-disposition to be a good liar; and, yes, a pre-disposition to criminality of the fraud type. That is why evidence of past criminal acts of a similar nature may be allowed into evidence to show a pattern - e.g., a pattern of con artistry. But, most con artists are not murderers.

I agree with all you say but will add something. Most con artists are not murderers but many serial killers are good con men, ie. charming and convincing liars. In this case there may be a similar pattern.

What could be shaping up here may simply be an evil person (with or without a mental illness component less than insanity), who is in effect a serial killer. That type of person may show few (if any) signs of becoming a serial killer, except in hindsight.

This is goes with what Slap says above, that this thing was planned out. I think that there may have been a shrewed (sic) appreciation of the political situation and the difficulties of prosecution vis-a-vis normal American standards of forensics and witness', and all that was figured into it the goal of course being to get away with it. The killer who killed all the college girls in many states used to do that, snatch the girl in one jurisdiction, kill her in another and dispose of her body in a third; all to make it hard for the cops.

The Bales' case, so far, has nothing like this.

It never will. It is the difference between a young inexperienced hood and one who is older, more experienced and knows not to say anything at all to the cops.

[jmm99]

is the question - still to resolved, but the focus is narrowing.

Agreed:

Most con artists are not murderers but many serial killers are good con men, ie. charming and convincing liars.

I've no first hand knowledge of people convicted of serial or mass murders (one on ones with them); but only second hand knowledge from people who had first hand knowledge. The most recent was local in the 1990s (People vs Goodreau, who is serving life for serial murders; I went to Michigan Tech with a father of one of the victims, continued friendship with him, etc.). The most well-known (and similar mass homicide incident) was Richard Speck, who had a local connection to people who talked to me then:

Speck found work immediately after obtaining a letter of authority, joining the 33-member crew of Inland Steel's Clarence B. Randall, an L6-S-B1 class bulk ore lake freighter, on April 30. Speck's first voyage on the Clarence B. Randall was brief—he was stricken with appendicitis on May 3—and was evacuated by U.S. Coast Guard helicopter to St. Joseph's Hospital in Hancock, Michigan on the Keweenaw Peninsula of Michigan's Upper Peninsula where he had an emergency appendectomy.

After he was discharged from the hospital, Speck returned to stay with his sister Martha and her family in Chicago to recuperate. On May 20 he rejoined the crew of the Clarence B. Randall on which he served until June 14 when he got drunk and quarreled with one of the boat's officers and was put ashore on June 15. For the following week, Speck stayed at the St. Elmo, an East Side, Chicago flophouse at E. 99th St. & S. Ewing Ave. Speck then traveled by train to Houghton, Michigan, staying at the Douglas House, to visit Judy Laakaniemi, a 28-year-old nurse's aide going through a divorce, whom he had befriended at St. Joseph's Hospital. On June 27, after Judy gave him $80 to help him until he found work, Speck left to again stay with his sister Martha and her family in Chicago for the next two weeks.

Both Goodreau and Speck fit the con artist profile. I've also had one on ones with two people who went on to bigger things and are now serving life (though for neither serial murders nor mass murders) and who fit the con artist profile.

Thus, I've limited direct experience with serial and mass murderers. Michigan does not have the death penalty which I've already discussed.

A good lead to follow:

... what Slap says above, that this thing was planned out.

But, this is also true:

It [confession by Bales] never will. It is the difference between a young inexperienced hood and one who is older, more experienced and knows not to say anything at all to the cops.

But, the video has the man (on return) saying: "I did it." An announcement that he completed a "plan" known to others ?

Regards

Mike

[carl]

But, the video has the man (on return) saying: "I did it." An announcement that he completed a "plan" known to others ?

If that were true, this nightmare just got 5 shades darker. Lord, I hope you are wrong.

I have zero first hand experience with serial killers Mike. All I know is what I read and what others have told me. I should have made that clear.

[tequila]

Afghan shootings done in 2 trips from base

WASHINGTON — Military investigators suspect that the American soldier charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder and other charges in connection with the attacks against Afghan civilians earlier this month committed the shootings during two separate operations, a United States official said Saturday.

The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the continuing investigation, said that the investigators believe that the soldier, Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, left the Afghanistan base and carried out the first set of killings, returned to the combat outpost, and then, sometime later that evening, went out and attacked a second village. It was on his return from the second foray that Sergeant Bales was detained, the official said.

The Associated Press first reported the military’s findings about the two separate operations.

The official said this account emerged from a wide range of interviews that Army investigators have conducted over the last several days as they try to piece together what happened that night and why.

The scenario, he said, seems to support the United States government’s assertion that the killings were carried out by one person. But the official said there was no detailed chronology or an explanation, thus far, of how Bales was able to go back and forth and only be detected the second time he returned to the base.

[carl]

3 more ISAF people shot dead by ANSF or local police.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/wo...html?ref=world

And then 10 suicide vests found around the Afghan Defence Ministry, some in guard shacks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/wo...html?ref=world

Unknown whether these events are in partially in response to the mass murder or part of the continuing pattern of ANSF people murdering ISAF people.

What can you say?

[slapout9]

I said almost always. I said that because I knew never to say never. But I still believe it to be mostly true. Good people don't just snap. There almost always is a history, especially in acts of criminal violence directed against others. There sure as heck is one in this case.



...is interesting to me because it shows a pre-existing disposition to criminality. Whether that has any bearing on the prosecution's case or not you know far better than I.

Thats exactly right, if they keep digging this guy will have a long history of screwing people and he likes it. He planned this whole thing.