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Thread: Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

  1. #1241
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Nazi allies today amongst the 'men in green'

    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    Somebody has done good job. It seems that Russian hard core nationalists are fighting for Ukraine. Main declared opponent is Right sector, Ukrainian nationalists. Crazy ...

    http://inforesist.org/znakomtes-bliz...y-na-donbasse/
    Kaur,

    A good catch that, leaving aside the website's views and readers should note the article can be transalted on the website to English (small US flag icon).

    Perhasp someone in Kiev will note the rather odd - to say the least about those depicted as a patriots or 'men in green' wearing this badge:

    The website says:
    For clarity’s sake, the symbol is that of Andrei Shkuro‘s ‘Terek Wolf Company’, a detachment of White emigre Cossacks who fought for Nazi Germany during the second world war.
    Wiki on Andrei Shkuro:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Shkuro

    I note his anti-Semitism, could this group's presence explain the handing out of leaflets requiring Jewish registration?

    Incidentally Shkuro, along with many others surrendered to the British in Austria in 1945 and was handed over to the KGB, he was later executed.
    davidbfpo

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    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Yes, mostly... except for this:

    ...which is a complete crock: the reasons behind the oil glut are many and complex, but it was never a deliberate construct targeting the Soviets.
    A complete crock? Perhaps, but I think not. That is not the point though. The point was the Soviet Union broke up because it was opposed, as you conceded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    I think you missed the point, though.

    First, it needs to be stressed that all the talk about how all is lost if the Ukraine is lost is a load of bollocks. There is no reason to suppose that drawing a line will get suddenly more difficult if things continue to go badly in the Ukraine. Arguably the Ukraine is a poor place to draw a line: there's no functional government, the armed forces are in disarray, and there is a very substantial Russian population, much of which really does want reunion. All of that makes enforcing a drawn line a lot more complicated.

    Precisely because drawing a line takes money and will, it's best done when allies (without whom any line-drawing exercise is going to be pretty fluffy in this case) and the domestic audience are really committed to the exercise.

    Controlling Putin will of course be a lot easier than controlling the Soviet Union was: this is not Cold War 2.0. Still it will require will on the domestic front and cooperation in Europe. If we don't have those, it's a bad time to start a confrontation.
    Saying if Ukraine goes all is lost is a load of bollocks. But that is not what is being said, at least not by me. I have said that it will be a lot easier to actively work to save Ukraine now thereby stopping Russian aggression now than it will be to let it go under and then having to stop Vlad later. It will be harder because if he gets away with this, Vlad's Russia will be materially stronger and much more confident therefore much harder to fight and stop.

    'Europe' doesn't matter. Poland matters. Sweden matters. The Czech Republic matters. The Ukraine matters. All of those countries and others have plenty of motivation to resist strongly. All they need from us are money and weapons and a little evidence of backbone. We've supplied none.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    I don't see any of this as a function of who's in the White House. I don't think any administration in recent memory would have responded much differently.
    Foreign policy is who is in the White House. Reagan is part of my recent memory and I wouldn't think he would stand passively by. My opinion only of course. Bush II initiated the Surge in Iraq in the face of great opposition, that is in my recent memory too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    One obvious takeaway from all this is that Putin is an opportunist. If you give him a break, he'll take it. Among all the talk of deterrence and sanctions, one thing that's being missed is that when you're facing an opportunist, it's best not to give him opportunities. I certainly hope that the other frontline states are watching their borders carefully, monitoring pro-Russian groups, and keeping close tabs on any efforts to kick up a fuss. A few Russian provocateurs arrested and paraded before the media before being kicked unceremoniously back across the border will be a useful thing.
    Yes, exactly. In order to stop an aggressive thug like Putin, you actually have to do something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Putin is not Stalin. He wants an excuse, a lever, a justification, no matter how thin. Denying him those opportunities is as important and a whole lot less expensive than the big chest-thumping displays that so many are demanding. A lot of fuss gets made, for example, about how the withdrawal of US armor in Europe opened the door for the Ukraine move. I don't think that meant squat: whatever assets you have nearby mean nothing if you aren't going to use them, and I expect Putin would have reasoned (correctly, and again not specific to this administration) that the US wasn't going to go to war over the Ukraine, and rolled right ahead.
    Two things about this statement. First, unless you want to freeze the world in place as it is at this second, Putin will always find an excuse to aggress. If he can't find one he'll just send in the provocateurs you mentioned above and create one, as he is doing now.

    Second, you are right about him having reasoned that the US won't do anything. But you are wrong about that not being peculiar to this administration. After having rolled the chief executive with a word over the ABM system in east Europe and made a fool of him in Syria I think he concluded that fecklessness is a prime characteristic of this chief executive. My opinion only of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    You could argue that in the case of the Cold War in Eastern Europe, appeasement did work. Space was traded for time, an enforceable line was found, and the opponent was effectively contained. The argument that the struggle was harder than it would have been if initiated earlier is not being logically supported here. How does recognizing that we're in a poor position to draw a line at the Ukraine make the defense of Poland more difficult?
    Appeasement does not refer to the Cold War. It refers to Europe pre-WWII.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Yes, the world is a ####ty place. All over the world, real live breathing people with families and friends and hobbies are getting smacked around. Many of them you don't know or care about: I've yet to hear you demand US action to protect, say, the Rohingya, who are getting it from people who make Putin look like Mother Teresa.

    This is where you say "so because we can't help everyone, we shouldn't help anyone?" and I reply "no, because we can't help everyone, we have to decide who to help and when based on our own interests, capabilities, and needs".
    How lightly you dismiss all those real live people asking our help who live in a country being invaded by the Russians or looking at threat on the horizon.

    Rohingya is not a nation being invaded by another, it is sad thing within a nation. Therefore there is not threat to the international order that comes when nations invade others; which goes then goes to your statement about our interests, capabilities and needs, all of which apply to Ukraine and not so much to Burma. Besides, we can always tell the Rohingyans "the world is a ####ty place."

    I wasn't going to say that. I was going to say that you help when and it isn't wrong to do so just because you can't always help.

    (You gotta go a long way to make a KGB guy look like Mother Teresa. Tens of millions of dead Russians attest to that.)
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    David, this cossack/KGB victim episode shows once again what kind of ideological mess is there.

    Stan, I think they have even this kind of Glocks. Irony is again that West basher Rogozin is involved to Glock business in Russia.

    http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire...1-abcfc3d22dea

    Ps Costa has regular model 17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNMGh7sDFtI

  4. #1244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    What exactly are they going to get...


    In addition to being part of annual Spring Storm exercises this symbolic troop rotation is probably making the 10s of thousands of Russian troops across the borders roll on the floor, LMAO.
    The deployments at this time are symbolic. More will come.

    Also the press release made it clear that these troops were in addition to the normal NATO/Joint excercises.



    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Seems we forgot that NATO should be running the show and have yet again stepped into the breech blindly. Afghanistan anyone ?
    That is actually the more interesting thing. The press release for this came out of the Warsaw Embassy. Not out of Brussels. As I said, it is currently symbolic but it indicates a willingness to move American troops. In addition there are navel movements into the Black Sea and the F16s already moved to Poland. These all appear to be unilateral actions not part of a general NATO response.

    Now, that could be because the US is being asked to do this; or

    because the US felt it had to; or

    because NATO could not agree on an action; or

    because NATO countries did not feel they could openly sanction these actions.


    In any case, it is interesting that these multiple bi-lateral agreements with Baltic countries (including Estonia, I blame you for that) are happening. That the announcement came out of Warsaw would indicate that they were meant for local consumption.

    Still hard to read.

    Clearly one battalion of Airborne Infantry are not going to stop 40K Heavy Russian Soldiers, but I don’t believe that is their purpose.

    Waiting to see what the further rotational units will be.
    Last edited by TheCurmudgeon; 04-23-2014 at 04:29 PM.
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    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    It could just be that it takes more time to get everyone in NATO to agree to a plan. This report of addtional NATO troops moving to Eastern Europe is three weeks old ...

    Nato planners are currently looking at options including situating permanent military bases in the Baltic states to reassure members in Eastern Europe.

    Russia's actions in Ukraine have caused concern in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - all Nato members which were part of the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

    Nato jets will take part in air patrols in the region later in a routine exercise that analysts say has taken on added significance because of the crisis. Several Nato countries, including the UK, US and France, have offered additional military aircraft.

    But Mr Lavrov accused Nato of exaggerating the importance of Russian troop movements on the borders of eastern Ukraine.

    He said Russia had the right to move troops within its territory, and that the forces currently near the border would return to their permanent bases after completing military exercises.

    Moscow also announced that some of its special forces would be taking part in a joint military exercise in Belarus later this month.

    Russia's defence ministry said a unit of its paratroopers will join their Belarusian counterparts to rehearse assault operations from 15-18 April in the north of the country.

    Meanwhile, Germany's ambassador to Russia was summoned by the Russian foreign ministry on Thursday after Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble likened Moscow's moves in Crimea to Adolf Hitler's 1938 annexation of German-speaking regions of Czechoslovakia.

    "We consider such pseudo-historical references by the German minister provocative," the Russian foreign ministry said in a statement. "The comparisons by him are a gross manipulation of historic facts."
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26866989

    Yesterday's actions appear to be more a stopgap untill a unified course of action could be agreed to.

    Soldiers from the 173rd, based out of Vicenza, Italy, witnessed some of the harshest combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. The gritty actions of its 2nd Battalion in the Korengal Valley were documented in the 2010 documentary, “Restrepo.” They will be engaged in “infantry training exercises,” with troops from the four countries, all NATO treaty signatories, according to Kirby.

    The Pentagon’s decision is more than just a gesture to reaffirm solidarity with its NATO allies, Kirby said.

    “Any time you put troops on the ground ... it’s more than just [symbolism],” he said.

    The USS Taylor will also steam into the Black Sea, where the USS Donald Cook remains. The Taylor had been there in February during the Winter Olympic Games in Sochi, and had to be retrofitted in a Turkish port after running aground. The Donald Cook made headlines earlier in April when a Russian fighter jet buzzed it. Kirby confirmed there have been no further interaction with Russian forces since.

    The deployment of the 173rd will be strictly on a bilateral basis with those four countries, not through a larger NATO action. Concerns have circulated, including through a report from the Atlantic Council, that some other members of NATO are reticent to get involved militarily in action clearly designed to test the Russian resolve.

    Air Force Gen. Philip Breedlove, NATO’s top general and the commander of U.S. European Command, remains in discussions with other NATO leaders over further plans, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said last week.
    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...poland-baltics

    Perhaps the WH is rethinking there stand on any chance of a negotiated settlement with Russia .....

    The Obama administration appears to have all but concluded that a diplomatic agreement struck last week to try to deescalate the Ukraine crisis isn’t working. The White House already has announced more new non-lethal assistance to Kiev, and the next step could be new rounds of sanctions on Russian leaders.
    http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...ia-105910.html
    Last edited by TheCurmudgeon; 04-23-2014 at 04:47 PM.
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  6. #1246
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    The deployments at this time are symbolic. More will come.

    Also the press release made it clear that these troops were in addition to the normal NATO/Joint excercises.
    Stan,
    A press release from Warsaw indicated more troops would come, or more rotations would follow ?

    Yep, there have been hundreds of joint exercises here since 94 and they indeed will continue.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    That is actually the more interesting thing. The press release for this came out of the Warsaw Embassy. Not out of Brussels. As I said, it is currently symbolic but it indicates a willingness to move American troops. In addition there are navel movements into the Black Sea and the F16s already moved to Poland. These all appear to be unilateral actions not part of a general NATO response.
    Agree, slightly strange, but we have no idea who was to be first to blow the lid. Something symbolic with State and who gets to do what first. At the end of the day, it's State's money and they call the shots. Brussels means Jack to State. We stand to "once again stand alone" without a voted response regardless of why we think NATO is dead alpha slow in making decisions. We however risk yet more isolation and more spying stuff. We lack a thought process when we think with our little head.

    A symbolic gesture to move our sierra here and there might mean something to rational leaders, but, we are dealing with Vova. There has never been a moment that one could conclude he was rational.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    Now, that could be because the US is being asked to do this; or

    because the US felt it had to; or

    because NATO could not agree on an action; or

    because NATO countries did not feel they could openly sanction these actions.
    1. Hmmm, has there ever been a documented example where the USA was asked to deploy all alone ?

    2. This one I think is the correct answer

    3. True

    4. Dead on the money


    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    In any case, it is interesting that these multiple bi-lateral agreements with Baltic countries (including Estonia, I blame you for that) are happening.
    We made a foolish decision years ago and tied all three countries together with membership rights. At that point, only Estonia was ready. The State Partnership Programs were designed around funding and agreements. Yes, I was heavily involved back then, but my recommendations fell on deaf ears.

    Regards, Stan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Stan,
    A press release from Warsaw indicated more troops would come, or more rotations would follow ?
    Going back and rereading them I cannot tell. The funny thing is that the Embassy Press Release seems to have changed. I thought it included a phrase about additional deployments, but that language is gone. I could have been mixing reports.

    It seems clear that "other things" were happening, but they may not have included actual troops on the ground. I suspect there will be further sanctions as well as other forms of aide to the Ukraine.
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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    It could just be that it takes more time to get everyone in NATO to agree to a plan. This report of addtional NATO troops moving to Eastern Europe is three weeks old ...

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26866989
    Stan,
    Using this search string, I can't find anything more than at the below link.

    Belarusian counterparts to rehearse assault operations from 15-18 April
    Russia, Belarus to Conduct Joint Aircraft and Air Defense Exercises


    Did it ever happen? Seems like press manipulation targeted at wire feeds. No pictures, no war hounds, no nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    Yesterday's actions appear to be more a stopgap untill a unified course of action could be agreed to.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...poland-baltics

    Perhaps the WH is rethinking there stand on any chance of a negotiated settlement with Russia .....

    http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...ia-105910.html
    So, in a word, we unilaterally jumped the gun again ?
    I love the numbers game in the press BTW. We throw around 600 as if it was a huge number.
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  9. #1249
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    Going back and rereading them I cannot tell. The funny thing is that the Embassy Press Release seems to have changed. I thought it included a phrase about additional deployments, but that language is gone. I could have been mixing reports.

    It seems clear that "other things" were happening, but they may not have included actual troops on the ground. I suspect there will be further sanctions as well as other forms of aide to the Ukraine.
    Funny that, how the Embassy and/or State get to change the webpages without our consent Been there, done that.

    EUCOM states rotations, not additions and nothing more than small arms.

    If we wanted to get Vova's attention, send in 600 Abrams

    Yep, more sanctions says Kerry in a phone call

    In a phone call ? We have lost our people skills
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    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    If we wanted to get Vova's attention, send in 600 Abrams
    I agree, but I am holding my tongue. I have said it before, Armor is great but it takes time to get into theater. One of its biggest problems.

    If there are movements from some isolated location in the Indian Ocean or some other prepo stock, it is not being advertised.
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    Mirhond, is this the quality of representative Russia can afford in Eastern Ukraine? Russians should buy suit and tie at least and send the guy to sauna before presenting to audience.
    Russian cossacks with nazi backround is super irony. Russians say that Ukrainians and Russians are brothers, but now the representatives of extreme nationalism are fighting each other. At the same time Russia is trying to find allies in this fight among European rights. Oo, brothers, sort thing brother thing first out before going to crusade.
    For me as outsider, this subculture of pravoslavye cossacks, is interesting new study topic. Mirhond, can you suggest me reading list? First book should be "Two hundred years together" by Solzhenitsyn?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    I agree, but I am holding my tongue. I have said it before, Armor is great but it takes time to get into theater. One of its biggest problems.

    If there are movements from some isolated location in the Indian Ocean or some other prepo stock, it is not being advertised.
    Stan,
    There have been increasing returns lately.

    Heavy armor returns to Europe to support rotational forces
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    What I will say is that in the case of Germany this is no ability to defend against any military threat either to Germany itself or any NATO or EU ally.
    This is a primitive lie and not surprising considering the source.


    No David, I don't care. I reserve the right to call out a liar when he lies.

    It does no good to a forum to ignore lies only to maintain 'civility'. Where I come from it's the liar who violates civility.


    I even pointed JMA to a report about the flimsy military strength of Russia particularly in its Western Military District not long ago. There's no way how how can not know that the German military is on about the same level of capability as its only semi-plausible threat.

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    EU elections may strengthen Putin in Europe

    A recent study by the Budapest-based Political Capital Institute documents the support that far-right parties in the EU have given to Russian President Vladimir Putin, particularly throughout the Ukraine crisis.

    These parties repeated the Kremlin’s line that it is the EU and the West, rather than Russia, which are provoking tension and fuelling violence in the Eastern European country.

    Several far-right politicians went to observe the Crimea referendum on re-joining Russia, a vote they said was free and fair although it was denounced as illegitimate by most Western leaders.

    Among those that went were politicians from far-right or populist parties in Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, France and Hungary.
    http://euobserver.com/eu-elections/123887

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    Stan---I got what I need in profiling mirhond and the TTPs---thanks as it is being used in a future study on counter I/O that others have shown an interest in.

    The Ukraine game has run its course and Putin is on third and heading home and we are not even in the game as they say ---simply because virtually the entire Russian defense industry sits in eastern Ukraine and Russian would need 6-10 years to rebuild it in Russia and they cannot wait as they have started their Force rebuild which has to be completed by 2020. Therefore they will not give up the eastern part to the "Right Sector" regardless of economic costs nor to the current "illegitimate" Ukrainian government nor US sanctions. By the way the 2020 plan foresaw building 42 plus ships and now the Crimea gives Russia an additional two shipyards and if coupled to Odessa gives them the necessary shipyards to complete the 42 in time for 2020.

    The single question is now will the new US containment policy that is being formulated on the move and implemented on the move be in fact supported by NATO and more especially the Germans?

    Russia has won their implemented UW and political warfare campaign and our national leaders and military leaders do no even understand the game.

    That is the core question or a second core question is Putin really also after splitting the US from NATO and the US from the EU as part of his political warfare thus ending the "perceived" US unipolar hegemony---it was all in his Duma speech if people really read it and listened to his Russian intonation.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 04-23-2014 at 08:55 PM. Reason: Edited to author

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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    Kaur,

    Isn't this more of the same from the Soviet era when they were supported by the extreme left, performing the bidding for Moscow ?

    Now to the extreme right with opposition to immigration and gay marriage ?

    Seems they are but puppets and got sucked in when Zubarev talked about family, nation and religion (as if he even knew what he was talking about).

    I'm glad Estonia didn't get sucked into this Sierra.
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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Outlaw,

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Stan---I got what I need in profiling mirhond and the TTPs---thanks as it is being used in a future study on counter I/O that others have shown an interest in.
    Great to hear; maybe she will do the same herein and after.


    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    The Ukraine game has run its course and Putin is on third and heading home and we are not even in the game as they say ---simply because virtually the entire Russian defense industry sits in eastern Ukraine and Russian would need 6-10 years to rebuild it in Russia and they cannot wait as they have started their Force rebuild which has to be completed by 2020. Therefore they will not give up the eastern part to the "Right Sector" regardless of economic costs nor to the current "illegitimate" Ukrainian government nor US sanctions. By the way the 2020 plan foresaw building 42 plus ships and now the Crimea gives Russia an additional two shipyards and if coupled to Odessa gives them the necessary shipyards to complete the 42 in time for 2020.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vova wanted 512 ships by 2030, and, he stressed the need for Russian companies to learn Western technologies. He was also going to go Far East for that high tech sierra. In fact, South Korea and China were or still are considered strategic partners.

    While the Ukraine may be in the top ten for metal, they are high hurdles from Finnish and Chinese metal and ship production capabilities. And, the corruption levels found in the Ukraine are limited only by one's imagination. So, Putin should find himself right a home

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    The single question is now will the new US containment policy that is being formulated on the move and implemented on the move be in fact supported by NATO and more especially the Germans?
    Nope, I doubt any support will come from NATO. We jumped the gun with 600 soldiers and 12 aircraft as if that was threatening. Bravo Sierra. What's the deal with the Germans ? You mean Gerhard ? Everyone knows he is best buds with Vova, but to influence the entire German population with 1.7 million Turks to boot

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Russia has won their implemented UW and political warfare campaign and our national leaders and military leaders do no even understand the game.

    That is the core question or a second core question is Putin really also after splitting the US from NATO and the US from the EU as part of his political warfare thus ending the "perceived" US unipolar hegemony---it was all in his Duma speech if people really read it and listened to his Russian intonation.
    I doubt our military leadership does not comprehend, but I do believe our administration is lost in a euphoria of post elections. Unless he does a Clinton, he will cruise right through to retirement unscathed.

    I sincerely doubt NATO would exist without its largest contributor bordering on 75%. Hard to split the sole financial source excluding the building in Belgium. Similarly, I think that UN thing in NY should be in Shanghai along with the duds inside. The EU can't afford to walk away from US.
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    The Russians are comming ...

    Apparently the Russian Constitution gives Russia the right to invade any country where a Russian citizen and sometimes not just citizens, just an ethnic Russian) is threatened. Not sure how that squares with international norms:

    Meanwhile, Lavrov insists Russia is merely protecting its interests.

    “If we are attacked, we would certainly respond,” he said.

    “If our interests, our legitimate interests, the interests of Russians have been attacked directly, like they were in South Ossetia, for example, I do not see nay other way but to respond in full accordance with international law,” he said. ...

    Georgian sources tell WND that Russia intends to take action similar to what it did in Crimea by annexing South Ossetia to the Russian Federation. It’s part of an overall Russian strategy to set up buffer zones against NATO encroachment to the Russian border.

    Residents of South Ossetia are said to be in favor of annexation, since there is a large concentration of ethnic Russians there.

    “Russian citizens being attacked is an attack against the Russian Federation,” Lavrov told Russia Today in an interview that is to be broadcast later Wednesday.

    Lavrov denied that Russian troops are in Ukraine, although regional sources tell WND that the pro-Russian troops in uniforms without any markings are Russian Spetznaz, or special forces. The forces now have entered into eastern Ukraine, where ethnic Russians have been demonstrating to be annexed to Russia.

    “The only thing I would like to highlight at this stage is that the Russian troops are on the Russian territory,” Lavrov said, without elaboration.
    http://www.wnd.com/2014/04/russia-th...on-of-ukraine/

    So, if a Russian is attacked say, in Miami, then Russia can invade and annex South Beach! Makes perfect sence to me.
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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Ukraine Crisis Could Impact Chernobyl Radiation Shield

    “The reactor is leaking as it is, that’s the worry. The current shield is not enclosing the leak fully, not preventing it,” Camrody said, reiterating the concern that geopolitics might interfere with the construction schedule.
    If you want to blend in, take the bus

  20. #1260
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    I'm glad that one educated man has written article about our discussion here. Beards, AK-100, KGB etc

    Moscow's War in Ukraine Relies on Local Assets
    By Mark GaleottiApr. 23 2014 21:20 Last edited 21:20

    In many ways, the hunt for clear, undeniable proof of direct Russian involvement in the eastern Ukrainian rebellion — above all, the presence of its special forces and intelligence officers — has become a political Rorschach test. Those determined to deny any Russian role can airily dismiss all claims. Those eager to prove a link see evidence all around them. But both miss the point. It is safe to assume that Russian operatives are there, but to assume that they are the gunmen is to misunderstand the nature of the Russian campaign and the new kind of war being fought.

    ...

    On the ground, the primary actors appear to be the local political and security elites. They are closely connected to Russia and have every reason to fear coming under the control of a new Ukrainian government. Just as in the Cold War, when the KGB was stirring up revolutionary wars and insurgencies around the world, the Kremlin's men are not on the front line. They are behind the scenes, coordinating, recruiting, training, arming and supporting.

    This strategy of undermining Kiev is cheap, easy, cynical and effective. But it also means that when some kind of political settlement is reached, it will be harder to control these militants.

    Just as Maidan Square, the source of a popular uprising, has become the crucible of violent nationalism, the militants from the pro-Russian side have dug in their heels in the battle for Ukraine. They will unlikely be comfortable returning to their normal lives. It is hard to see the thugs of Slovyansk and Mariupol duly handing in their shiny new guns. The new breed of local "commanders"— often linked with organized crime — will need to be co-opted or crushed.

    In short, Moscow's decision not to fight this conflict through conventional means and with its own men may mean that it wins the war, but it will have a much harder time keeping the peace after that.

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/articl...mes+Opinion%29

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