Life expectancy of an insurgent in Iraq

[aktarian]

To elaborate my way of thinking, I will remind you of deep and long relations with Ex-Yugoslavian Army (either thru technology or strategic co-operation) and concept of Yugoslavian (next) partisan/guerilla war... Let enemy deep in the country (either Russian forces thru Bulgaria and Hungary or Romania; or NATO troops from Italy and/or Austria or Greece), go low in start, reorganize, and use guerilla war and hidden stash of weapons, fuel, factories, hidden network of fox holes, trenches and bunkers in the middle of the country...

True though there was division between federal (JLA) and local (TO-Teritorialna obramba, teritorial defence) forces. Federals were supposed to carry on regular fight (withdrawing to Bosnian bastion protected by rough and wooded terrain) while TO would wage guerilla war behind enemy lines, relying on knowledge of terrain and support of population (being locals they would have this).

Insisting that they lack of "single command and control or even leadership" is proving that they are not that strong or dangerous, it's simple not true. Please look at examples from Chechnya, Bosnia, and Afghanistan (against Russia)... For YEARS fighters there lack single command and control and leadership and yet manage to wage good fights and war. And to win mind you... In those Chechen commanders interviews (so precious from tactical stand point!) Chechen commanders said by themselves that they disorganization help them to win!

Disagree on most points. Chechnya (depending on which war you are talking about) was a para state with all functions of such state. Government, military... so they had central leadership (though rogues did exist). Ditto for Bosnia. It had functions of a state and military (though military was weak). I agree with you an Afghanistan and said so before.

PS. I am sorry for delaying so much to answer you and I do apologize on length of this post.

Well, sharing a view is always good.

[Sarajevo071]

True though there was division between federal (JLA) and local (TO-Teritorialna obramba, teritorial defence) forces. Federals were supposed to carry on regular fight (withdrawing to Bosnian bastion protected by rough and wooded terrain) while TO would wage guerilla war behind enemy lines, relying on knowledge of terrain and support of population (being locals they would have this).

Disagree on most points. Chechnya (depending on which war you are talking about) was a para state with all functions of such state. Government, military... so they had central leadership (though rogues did exist). Ditto for Bosnia. It had functions of a state and military (though military was weak). I agree with you an Afghanistan and said so before.

Well, sharing a view is always good.

Sorry, in my mind was those interviews of the First war and commanders words that “being decentralize and disorganize” help them win since Russians could not point out they command and control structure and destroy them.

Now about Bosnia… They did have “state” and “leadership” (political) even in start but they did NOT have a control… The way war started, the way all those different groups was organize, lead and fight, was chaotic and left on people/leaders of those groups alone! Only in late 1995. Government was able to put all different units and renegade commanders under one High Bosnian Army Command. If Serbs manage to take out anyone from presidency or Army Command, that would not mean much since majority of Bosnians like only one from them (late President of Bosnia, Alia Izetbegovic) and on Commander of regular Army they look on him like a failure who surrender his all unit (while being General in JNA) and then he slip to Bosnian side.

My “proof” is that all MAJOR victories was made in start of war (when there was no Presidential control over big numbers of separated and independent groups in Sarajevo region) or it was in other parts of Bosnia cutoff from main territory and therefore from influence or decisions from President or Army (Bosnians didn’t have real army units until 1993.)… Successes by the end were made under one Army but thanks to separate influence and charisma of couple of commanders and units.


PS. I see great insight about concept of JNA and TO, and strategic position of Bosnia and resources in such a war... Impressive.

[aktarian]

Sorry, in my mind was those interviews of the First war and commanders words that “being decentralize and disorganize” help them win since Russians could not point out they command and control structure and destroy them.

I wouldn't go that far. The thing is that Chechnya had centralised leadership. Dudayev was in charge and recognised as such. Later it did fragment a bit but not to a degree of Afghansitan. I believe this process continued after 1996 when central government was loosing control over rogues and various foreigners.

Now about Bosnia… They did have “state” and “leadership” (political) even in start but they did NOT have a control… The way war started, the way all those different groups was organize, lead and fight, was chaotic and left on people/leaders of those groups alone! Only in late 1995. Government was able to put all different units and renegade commanders under one High Bosnian Army Command. If Serbs manage to take out anyone from presidency or Army Command, that would not mean much since majority of Bosnians like only one from them (late President of Bosnia, Alia Izetbegovic) and on Commander of regular Army they look on him like a failure who surrender his all unit (while being General in JNA) and then he slip to Bosnian side.

Agree to a degree. I think disorganisation you refer to was result of arming and weapons imbalance between Serbs and Bosniacs. Bosniac presidency was able to exercise control over it's units (with later exception of Bihac and Fikret Abdic). No such control existed in afghanistan and no such control exists in Iraq. Bosnia had somebody who could speak for all Bosniacs and who would be obeyed.

My “proof” is that all MAJOR victories was made in start of war (when there was no Presidential control over big numbers of separated and independent groups in Sarajevo region) or it was in other parts of Bosnia cutoff from main territory and therefore from influence or decisions from President or Army (Bosnians didn’t have real army units until 1993.)… Successes by the end were made under one Army but thanks to separate influence and charisma of couple of commanders and units.

If you are talking about Serb victories I'd put the sucess on weapons advantage (specially arty and AFVs) Serbs had. And most later Bosniac victories were achieved either with cooperation with Croatia or after NATO airstrikes..

PS. I see great insight about concept of JNA and TO, and strategic position of Bosnia and resources in such a war... Impressive.

Well, we were one country until 15 years ago (I'm from Slovenia) and I study military matters so this interests me.

[Sarajevo071]

Agree to a degree. I think disorganisation you refer to was result of arming and weapons imbalance between Serbs and Bosniacs. Bosniac presidency was able to exercise control over it's units (with later exception of Bihac and Fikret Abdic). No such control existed in afghanistan and no such control exists in Iraq. Bosnia had somebody who could speak for all Bosniacs and who would be obeyed.

Yes and no. There were many groups out of they effective control. In Sarajevo for example, they was numerous "police action" during the war to bring those groups together and only in late 1995. they was put under one command. Similar in other parts of Bosnia. They all recognized authority of Mr. Izetbegovic but distrusted people around him (politician or military). Only Izetbegovic could ask someone to do so and they will obey... There was no other such strong command or authority in those years.

If you are talking about Serb victories I'd put the sucess on weapons advantage (specially arty and AFVs) Serbs had. And most later Bosniac victories were achieved either with cooperation with Croatia or after NATO airstrikes..

I was thinking about Bosnian victories (in resisting the Serbian advances and conquering towns of Sarajevo, Tuzla, Zenica and Bihac). Second, some major battles for Bosnia was not achieved with Croatian or NATO help since some of those victories was against Bosnian Croatian forces, with help of Croatia, after they betrayed joint fight against Serbs and start fighting for Croatian state interests. Major forces that succeed in that were foreign and domestic mujahideen units, and couple Bosnian brigades...

Also, talking about major victories on the end, Croatia helped (and only on the Bosnia-Croatia border where Croats need Bosnians) only where Bosnians lack of, which was heavy artillery and tanks... But they were very careful not to help too much. Major battle and victory in Bosnia (Vozuca battle), was fight and win by Bosnian forces and Mujahideen units.

Well, we were one country until 15 years ago (I'm from Slovenia) and I study military matters so this interests me.

Good to know that, Slovenac. I am Bosnian from Sarajevo (who spend all war there, if you wish to know), and one who was involved in military/police for long time.