Weight of Combat Gear Is Taking Toll

[JMA]

Roman legion humped 25 miles a day with 70 pounds of armor and kit if Vegetius is to be believed.

90% of the soldiers who got hurt wearing armor (or at least claimed it for the VA) were out of shape pogues who failed to prepare themselves physically.
a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite.

Standard kit.
Front and Rear Sapi
Basic load
2 frags
smoke
7 banger
JEMS
Camelback
Pistol (which I always say I will leave behind but never do)
IFAK
100 round saw pouch with binos/laser/pen flares/CLP/boresnake/GPS
Compass
M4/ACOG/PEC/Flashlight/Grip Pod (yes, I used it and liked it.)
Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable. I also ran on days not out of the wire.

What would you have me leave behind?

I dunno... could you repeat that in English?

[Schmedlap]

I dunno... could you repeat that in English?

I'm guessing these were the terms that seemed unclear. You can google the translations for photos.

SAPI = Small Arms Protective Insert
Basic Load = varies by weapon/unit; often shorthand for "7 30-round magazines"
7 banger = 7 magazines? I guess redundant give "basic load" above
Camelback = water bladder 64 to 120oz, usually; google it for a photo
IFAK = Individual First Aid Kit
ACOG = Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight
PEC = I think that refers to a PEQ-4

As for JEMS and Grip Pod, you got me. Must be something that came out after I ETS'd.

[Kiwigrunt]

Grippods appear to be getting very popular, also with the Brits.

[JMA]

I'm guessing these were the terms that seemed unclear. You can google the translations for photos.

SAPI = Small Arms Protective Insert
Basic Load = varies by weapon/unit; often shorthand for "7 30-round magazines"
7 banger = 7 magazines? I guess redundant give "basic load" above
Camelback = water bladder 64 to 120oz, usually; google it for a photo
IFAK = Individual First Aid Kit
ACOG = Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight
PEC = I think that refers to a PEQ-4

As for JEMS and Grip Pod, you got me. Must be something that came out after I ETS'd.

Thanks for that effort. I think the JEMS is an "intra team radio" and the gripod is a bipod for the rifle as per other posted info..

[Chris jM]

This is a relevant, interesting and all-too obvious lesson that is not unique to any theatre or time-period (but in this case relates to the 1994/5 Chechyan War):

One piece of Russian equipment that the Chechens initially used but soon discarded was individual protective gear. The Chechens found the use of helmets and body armor (flak jackets) impaired the mobility of their fighters in the urban environment. Already weighted down with ammunition and supplies the Chechens found that when they used captured body armor it led to a higher rate of Chechen casualties due to the loss of speed and mobility.

http://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/kaimov.pdf

The SWJ library is an amazing resource that I never really appreciated until this afternoon - what was supposed to be a quick scan to brush up on what actually happened in Chechnya turned into a four hour marathon.

An army serves national policy, and right now it seems that national policy for the western world is directing that you have to go into harms way you do so with the best and most lavish equipment available.

[GI Zhou]

Harking back to an earlier post - it's 0120 and insomnia and pain are a bitch. What is snivel?

It's not an issue what you carry when you are a young soldier etc in the field, as people seemed to accept it as part of the job. 20 years later fighting your compensation claim it all seems too long ago to the pen pushers in the other side of the desk.

One thing I noticed in my field (I was a clerk) was the increased number of females and older folks as my career (1977 - 1995). This example fro the early 1990s was on an exercise defending an air base in the in the Outback of Australia. No prizes for guessing where.

One section/squad of seven or eight guys in the field was nicknamed 'Dad's Army' as they has a combined average age of 52, which was only because one guy was 28! They had to carry the same kit as the younger fellas so eventually many of the older guys lot ended up on full pensions over the next few years, as they went on more ground war exercises, for stuffed backs and joints. I couldn't envisage them being deployed to patrol in theatre.

The males ended up building the bunkers, carrying the heavy kit, laying the barbed wire etc. When you see a WOD (RSM), two Staff Sergeants, and a Corporal at 33 who was the youngest laying sandbags in 90 degree plus heat and high humidity, and all the younger troops (exclusively female) are inside because they couldn't phyically carry them you knew something was wrong. We were told it was NOT to be inlcuded in the post-exercise report.

Was this an issue in Iraq as I haven't seen any thing on it?

[Uboat509]

I'm guessing these were the terms that seemed unclear. You can google the translations for photos.

SAPI = Small Arms Protective Insert
Basic Load = varies by weapon/unit; often shorthand for "7 30-round magazines"
7 banger = 7 magazines? I guess redundant give "basic load" above
Camelback = water bladder 64 to 120oz, usually; google it for a photo
IFAK = Individual First Aid Kit
ACOG = Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight
PEC = I think that refers to a PEQ-4

As for JEMS and Grip Pod, you got me. Must be something that came out after I ETS'd.

Bangers refers to Flashbang grenades, that is, grenades that are designed to temporarily stun anyone in the room where they are thrown for a second or two, long enough for the operator to get in and clear the room.

JEMS, you got me on as well. This is the grip pod.

[Uboat509]

Harking back to an earlier post - it's 0120 and insomnia and pain are a bitch. What is snivel?

I didn't see the post you are talking about but generally we use the term "snivel" or "snivel gear" to refer to anything you wear to keep warm and or dry. I imagine that it was originally meant to be a derisive term but it has just become just another slang term in the US Army lexicon.

Was this an issue in Iraq as I haven't seen any thing on it?

I personally don't know too many guys with more than a few years in the infantry or SF who don't have some sort of orthopedic problems, knees, ankles, backs, shoulders, you name it. Some of it is self-inflicted, not being smart about how we do PT (physical training- exercise) and some of it is just accumulated damage from years of walking through the woods with heavy stuff on or running with heavy stuff or falling down with heavy stuff on or, well, you get the point...

[GI Zhou]

I personally don't know too many guys with more than a few years in the infantry or SF who don't have some sort of orthopedic problems, knees, ankles, backs, shoulders, you name it. Some of it is self-inflicted, not being smart about how we do PT (physical training- exercise) and some of it is just accumulated damage from years of walking through the woods with heavy stuff on or running with heavy stuff or falling down with heavy stuff on or, well, you get the point...

Unfortunately too well....

[Schmedlap]

Bangers refers to Flashbang grenades, that is, grenades that are designed to temporarily stun anyone in the room where they are thrown for a second or two, long enough for the operator to get in and clear the room.

We carried M84 Stun Hand Grenades. Carrying 7 of those seems ridiculous (besides, our entire Company was only authorized 12 - pet peeve). I'm guessing the flashbangs are smaller? Or is this guy stuffing these things in an assault pack?

[Sylvan]

JEMS is the updated MBITR. 3 pound radio that works on multiple band width. SATCOM and SINCGARs primarily for me. I could talk with fixed wing, my local units and probably the Taliban if I knew what I was doing (which I really didn't)
A 7 banger is a flashbang that goes off 7 times (about 1 "bang" per second). More distracting than a single shot, though heavier. I don't do Hostage Rescue, so I throw one in if I am not sure if bad guys or not. I know what the noise is, unknowns don't. Mutliple uses when things are going wrong.
My assault bag had more ammo, smokes and some target designation stuff.
More goo packs and jerky, too.

Sorry about the confusion.

[jps2]

Don't know if that topic have been debated yet, if so please tell me on what thread attach this one.
If the subject seems to be sensitive, please remove this topic.

One of the major enhancement for Infantry, without saying arms and ammunitions, seems to be networking the coy of infantry.

As I can see some enhancements to put more tools in the hands of heavy infantry-mens, as they can leave some of them in the armored personnel carrier, I'm quite puzzled about benefits for light infantry, when I heard that the platoon level will have to choose what item is taken and what other not regarding to mission requirements.
It will be temptation to take all items (nvg, lr bino, max protection, com ...) as nobody ever now :
- what will be the new mission, or next sub-mission
- when it will be possible to have access to his/her own package
same problem as "what quantity of ammunition does I have to take ?" plus, nowadays, how many batteries shall I need ?
And by that nullifying the purpose of networking by reducing maneuver ability ?

If taking all items are not possible (size, load), how logistics will deal with it ? (give the right collective unit (package) to the right coy)

Regards
JpS

[JMA]

Don't know if that topic have been debated yet, if so please tell me on what thread attach this one.
If the subject seems to be sensitive, please remove this topic.

One of the major enhancement for Infantry, without saying arms and ammunitions, seems to be networking the coy of infantry.

As I can see some enhancements to put more tools in the hands of heavy infantry-mens, as they can leave some of them in the armored personnel carrier, I'm quite puzzled about benefits for light infantry, when I heard that the platoon level will have to choose what item is taken and what other not regarding to mission requirements.
It will be temptation to take all items (nvg, lr bino, max protection, com ...) as nobody ever now :
- what will be the new mission, or next sub-mission
- when it will be possible to have access to his/her own package
same problem as "what quantity of ammunition does I have to take ?" plus, nowadays, how many batteries shall I need ?
And by that nullifying the purpose of networking by reducing maneuver ability ?

If taking all items are not possible (size, load), how logistics will deal with it ? (give the right collective unit (package) to the right coy)

Regards
JpS

"Networking"? What do you mean?

I suggest it is obvious that the personal equipment carried by a soldier will be dictated to by the nature and duration of the operation undertaken. This should not be a personal choice but rather dictated by SOP and confirmed in the verbal orders for that particular operation.

I am supposing that the troops (be it a platoon or smaller patrol) will deploy from a base and will recover to that base once the operation has been completed.

Where the troops are to be resupplied in the field for further and maybe a different type of operation (say from OP [observation] to say ambush) then according to prearranged and prepacked scales of equipment and/or against SOP scales this resupply can be dropped off with them.

[jps2]

Ken, Thanks for correcting me.

JMA : Networking is the ability given to coys, team & platoon leaders to "see" where there subordinates are, (gps related), to send/receive small messages (like sms), to report ammunition consumption and so one : all functions given by new features of FFW (called IdZ, Felin, ... in Europe). These gears have their own weight, and needs batteries...

My question is relative to your advices/thinks regarding the balance between natural trend to bring the whole package and minimizing weight for better maneuver especially in high intensity conflicts and for light infantry, when nobody will knows when refilling/complement will be possible.
(For armor infantry, the problem is quite different as they are not supposed to fight without/far from their armored carrier.)

We have to think to future conditions and not focus on currents operations, when refilling/complement can be done within the 12h at worst, using our capabilities to operate by night. That ability will not be more effective against opponents with manpad and night vision devices.

[Infanteer]

Weight was always one of my biggest fights. I always tried fiddling with what we carried but no matter what you do, you were burdened.

My patrol loadout in Afghanistan consisted of:
- Body Armour, Helmet and Ballistic Eye-wear
- Carbine and 7 Mags
- 1 Frag Grenade
- 2 Smoke Grenades
- 1 First Aid Kit
- 1 GPS
- 1 set of binos
- 1 liter water
- MBITR (small VHF radio)
- 4 glowsticks
- Small Folding Knife
- Map, Pens, Paper

In my bag I would have:
- 2 x Rations (MREs; this was 24 hours)
- 3-6 extra liters of water
- 2 extra smoke
- 1 belt 7.62 or M-72 (all patrolmen carry something with omph)
- Ranger Blanket (got stuck once without it, never again)

I would normally take the bag out if I was operating away from the vehicle/outpost for more than 4-6 hours.

This is not much stuff, and it was heavy. If a guy had a support weapon or a radio, he was double screwed. Me and my NCOs looked at it, and you can't really get rid of much more. As someone already pointed out, the big key is to get rid of the weight of the hard armour somehow. The armour adds alot of weight and, usually, adds it in an uncomfortable and constricting way that only fatigues a soldier faster.

[William F. Owen]

As someone already pointed out, the big key is to get rid of the weight of the hard armour somehow. The armour adds alot of weight and, usually, adds it in an uncomfortable and constricting way that only fatigues a soldier faster.

That's a policy choice. It's not a military one.
There is obviously one highly classified piece of data that informs the judgement as to why you "need" to wear hard armour.
Excepting that, you are back to an issue of coverage and protection standard. Reducing each leads to some fairly major weight savings.

[Infanteer]

To an extent - I was searching more for a technical solution (ie: lighter ceramics, more breathable material, etc) as the real key.

[JMA]

There is obviously one highly classified piece of data that informs the judgement as to why you "need" to wear hard armour.
.

Again the truth gets shrouded in secrecy.

There is only one reason why the the "full Monty" of body armour needs to the worn and that's because ops data confirms a significant reduction in KIA / WIA... oh yes, other than that it just might be that an old school chum owns the body armour manufacturing process.

[JMA]

To an extent - I was searching more for a technical solution (ie: lighter ceramics, more breathable material, etc) as the real key.

I agree and state that if an incentive went out to design a full set of body armour at one third the weight they would get the contract to supply the whole US army and USMC and get a US$2m bonus on to you would see some action.

[JMA]

Weight was always one of my biggest fights. I always tried fiddling with what we carried but no matter what you do, you were burdened.

My patrol loadout in Afghanistan consisted of:
- Body Armour, Helmet and Ballistic Eye-wear
- Carbine and 7 Mags
- 1 Frag Grenade
- 2 Smoke Grenades
- 1 First Aid Kit
- 1 GPS
- 1 set of binos
- 1 liter water
- MBITR (small VHF radio)
- 4 glowsticks
- Small Folding Knife
- Map, Pens, Paper

In my bag I would have:
- 2 x Rations (MREs; this was 24 hours)
- 3-6 extra liters of water
- 2 extra smoke
- 1 belt 7.62 or M-72 (all patrolmen carry something with omph)
- Ranger Blanket (got stuck once without it, never again)

I would normally take the bag out if I was operating away from the vehicle/outpost for more than 4-6 hours.

This is not much stuff, and it was heavy. If a guy had a support weapon or a radio, he was double screwed. Me and my NCOs looked at it, and you can't really get rid of much more. As someone already pointed out, the big key is to get rid of the weight of the hard armour somehow. The armour adds alot of weight and, usually, adds it in an uncomfortable and constricting way that only fatigues a soldier faster.

Can you put some individual weights to each item please?