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Thread: Weight of Combat Gear Is Taking Toll

  1. #81
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    Default Perceptions of Mom and Pop Back Home

    - if Jr. has on 400 lbs of plate armor, they feel better, it's a perception of competency/protection, essentially political IMO - may as well be humping a portable X-ray machine too.......

  2. #82
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Funny that I have the "old style" that closes down the front and everytime I go out, the guys around me tell me they wish they had the same as the overthehead stuff weighs another 30 light weight pounds.

    I feel like the younger brother in Christmas Story after Mom has dressed him to go to school in the snow, sort of an armored plated Michelin Man.

    Tom

  3. #83
    Council Member ODB's Avatar
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    Default Lost track of this thread

    Sorry for the delay in the top down building clearing answer. Many years back 10-12 years ago. I was doing some testing for the folks out of Benning. We were testing MOUT ladders, when I asked about the old grappling hook method we had been using, I got an interesting response. The Army stopped doing that, due to soldiers no longer possessing the upper body strength to pull themselves up the rope. Hence we were testing other options. Just think this was pre body armor days.
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    In the Marine Corps, I don't think the doctrinal texts tell a different story yet, but a squad of grunts turned writers after Fallujah v.2.0 drafted the superb AAR that is is terribly difficult to get a wounded and dying guy up and out of a 2nd story room if he weighs 250 lbs, and the bad guys still own the 1st floor.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODB View Post
    The Army stopped doing that, due to soldiers no longer possessing the upper body strength to pull themselves up the rope. Hence we were testing other options. Just think this was pre body armor days.
    When I was a cadet preparing for jump school, we were told that every morning we needed to do 10 pull-ups prior to the start of PT (true) and that if you could not perform 10 pull-ups with perfect form, unassisted, after getting "smoked" at that time, on any day, then you would be dropped from the course (definitely not true). We did our preparation. Then when we got there, I think we were the only ones (other than the Navy folks who were on their way to becoming SEALs) who could do so. Most could do no more than 4 or 5. Some could barely do ONE. And these we largely skinny kids with not much weight to pull over the bar. Nintendo generation.

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    The Marine Corps just issued a field order that states Battalion and Squadron Commanders will determine the body armor policy in their Area of Operations.

    The Corps determined Regimental Commanders (Col.) can over rule , but it is the BN. (Lt. Col.) Commander who is closer to the reality and intimate with the terrain and tactical situations their Rifle Companies are fighting in.

    Politics and touchy, feely considerations may have just received a reality check.

    The Field Order was dated April 20, 2009

  7. #87
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Here is an interesting article from the Sunday Star & Stripes about a patrol in Afghanistan; temp. peaked in the low 90's, what appeared to be flat terrain and multiple heat casualties, including two that needed med-evac.

    http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?s...&article=62285
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  8. #88
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    Army looks to lighten load for Soldiers in Afghanistan

    FORT BELVOIR, Va. (Army News Service, Oct. 15, 2009) -- The Army is poised to introduce a plate-carrier vest to provide Soldiers more lightweight gear in the challenging operational environments of Afghanistan.

    An $18.6 million contract for 57,000 plate carriers was awarded Oct. 8, to KDH Defense Systems....

    The primary objective in providing Soldiers with a plate carrier is to reduce the weight of their body armor and to significantly reduce heat stress, enhancing combat performance in extreme temperatures, PEO Soldier officials said.

    The vest will carry standard hard armor plates for vital ballistic protection, but cover less of the Soldier's body than the Interceptor Body Armor system...

    The full-up plate carrier (including front and side hard armor plates) represents a weight reduction of 10 to 15 pounds compared with the complete Improved Outer Tactical Vest with front and side hard armor plates...

  9. #89
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    an $18.6 million contract for 57,000 plate carriers was awarded Oct. 8, to KDH Defense Systems....

    The primary objective in providing Soldiers with a plate carrier is to reduce the weight of their body armor and to significantly reduce heat stress, enhancing combat performance in extreme temperatures, PEO Soldier officials said.
    Wow. They finally got to where a whole bunch of folks have been for the last 4-5 years - in other words a time period where WW2 and 1 would have been before they got it right.
    Good news. Pity about the time. I bet the "system" not the "people" will get the blame though.
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    Default Weight is a factor of training

    Roman legion humped 25 miles a day with 70 pounds of armor and kit if Vegetius is to be believed.

    90% of the soldiers who got hurt wearing armor (or at least claimed it for the VA) were out of shape pogues who failed to prepare themselves physically.
    a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite.

    Standard kit.
    Front and Rear Sapi
    Basic load
    2 frags
    smoke
    7 banger
    JEMS
    Camelback
    Pistol (which I always say I will leave behind but never do)
    IFAK
    100 round saw pouch with binos/laser/pen flares/CLP/boresnake/GPS
    Compass
    M4/ACOG/PEC/Flashlight/Grip Pod (yes, I used it and liked it.)
    Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable. I also ran on days not out of the wire.

    What would you have me leave behind?

  11. #91
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    As an always been a civilian, I will risk getting excoriated for the following comments by those who've been there and done that.

    The Romans put a lot of effort into building extremely good roads so their soldiers could march those distances with those loads.

    "a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite."
    This quote begs the question-why just the most elite? Why not everybody else? Wouldn't there be more options available if the less elite could stay out as long? Wouldn't it be easier to stay out so long if less weight was carried.

    "Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable." The question isn't whether it can be done. The important question is can it be done so as to keep the Taliban looking over their shoulders thinking those guys might be gaining on them.

    "What would you have me leave behind?" I talked to a South African once who went on long patrols in Namibia. They were allowed to take what they wanted and thought they could carry and still move at the speed required. I think our people should be trusted to take what they want and leave what they don't need.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  12. #92
    Council Member Uboat509's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvan View Post
    Roman legion humped 25 miles a day with 70 pounds of armor and kit if Vegetius is to be believed.

    90% of the soldiers who got hurt wearing armor (or at least claimed it for the VA) were out of shape pogues who failed to prepare themselves physically.
    a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite.

    Standard kit.
    Front and Rear Sapi
    Basic load
    2 frags
    smoke
    7 banger
    JEMS
    Camelback
    Pistol (which I always say I will leave behind but never do)
    IFAK
    100 round saw pouch with binos/laser/pen flares/CLP/boresnake/GPS
    Compass
    M4/ACOG/PEC/Flashlight/Grip Pod (yes, I used it and liked it.)
    Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable. I also ran on days not out of the wire.

    What would you have me leave behind?
    That would depend on the mission. There are times when body armor is need and times when it is not. There are also times when 7 bangs might be needed and times when they would probably not. Other things could also be adjusted as needed.

  13. #93
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default That's un-American...

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    ...The important question is can it be done so as to keep the Taliban looking over their shoulders thinking those guys might be gaining on them.
    ...
    I think our people should be trusted to take what they want and leave what they don't need.
    Both items...

    Actually, the first is not, the fact that we are not doing that as often or as well as most over there wish is however, very risk averse, USA Today-ish. The second probably really is un-American. It certainly is un-
    Armyish...

  14. #94
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    Default Too much sir

    Quote Originally Posted by Uboat509 View Post
    That would depend on the mission. There are times when body armor is need and times when it is not. There are also times when 7 bangs might be needed and times when they would probably not. Other things could also be adjusted as needed.
    An Australian infantry warrant officer, weel versed in hidstory, did a study on weights carried by the Britsh then Australian soldier since 1788. Guess what, nothings changed weight wise. As soon as someone develops a lighter weapon, ammunition another piece of equipment is added.

    I trained with 16kg of equipment, (I never went on ops and in my day theer was little bosy armour about), plus weapon normally a L2 7.62x51mm automatic rifle (same weight as a SAW) or SLR (FN-FAL) or Steyr AUG. This included equivalent weights of ammuniton (270 rounds of 5.56mm or 180/200 rounds of 7.62mm) cleaning kit, four litres of water, trauma kit, a simple swiss army knife attached to my shirt with a long piece of 'hootchie' cord, Buck clasp knife atatched to my belt, torch and a brew kit good for 48 hours.

    I worked in the derst/tropical savannah and I had space for a night sight and an old wooden handled entrenching and radio if need be and food as I felt I needed it. being the assistant or squad commander and carrying the AR meant no radio. The ground was like rock. One karrabiner was carried as I put my rifle sling through it. Good for closing cut concertina wire too.

    Go from an operational unit to a REMF unit and they expected you to carry everything but the kitchen sink. Thought they were fighting NATO Central and the many of the girls collapsed under the weight before they even started!

    I don't think people realise the biggest issues are water, food and now batteries. If you can't go without a meal for 24 hours except sweets, canned stone fruits and coffee/tea you really are in the wrong business.

    If operating in snow or cold wet weather the weight changes considerably and outside this discussion as it becomes a battle against the elements as much as the enemy.

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    We won't ever break down our loads to what the taliban carries.
    I have run down taliban when using effective fire and manuever. You overall weight isn't going to change much, as somebody here noted. You train to the load and thats as fast as you are going to go.
    I dropped side sapis for most missions unless actually doing a raid.
    A 5 day mission is a recce. You are going to trade armor and ammo for food and batteries (or solar charger) YOu aren't going to be looking for trouble.

    In a firefight, you want the armor. It doesn't beat cover, but allows you to take risks under fire you wouldn't take otherwise. I fought fine with my load and I wouldn't trade my two main plates for anything else.

    You will note that food wasn't on there. All I had was goo packets in my pants pockets. I got hungry, but food isn't a priority.

    Taliban carried an ICOM, 3 mags and a bag of chinese vet pills.
    My load will never be close to that level regardless, so trying to out light fight the taliban is a stupid direction to go.
    You want to slow up the taliban? Aviation or fix with fires.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by GI Zhou View Post
    An Australian infantry warrant officer, weel versed in hidstory, did a study on weights carried by the Britsh then Australian soldier since 1788. Guess what, nothings changed weight wise. As soon as someone develops a lighter weapon, ammunition another piece of equipment is added.

    I trained with 16kg of equipment, (I never went on ops and in my day theer was little bosy armour about), plus weapon normally a L2 7.62x51mm automatic rifle (same weight as a SAW) or SLR (FN-FAL) or Steyr AUG. This included equivalent weights of ammuniton (270 rounds of 5.56mm or 180/200 rounds of 7.62mm) cleaning kit, four litres of water, trauma kit, a simple swiss army knife attached to my shirt with a long piece of 'hootchie' cord, Buck clasp knife atatched to my belt, torch and a brew kit good for 48 hours.

    I worked in the derst/tropical savannah and I had space for a night sight and an old wooden handled entrenching and radio if need be and food as I felt I needed it. being the assistant or squad commander and carrying the AR meant no radio. The ground was like rock. One karrabiner was carried as I put my rifle sling through it. Good for closing cut concertina wire too.

    Go from an operational unit to a REMF unit and they expected you to carry everything but the kitchen sink. Thought they were fighting NATO Central and the many of the girls collapsed under the weight before they even started!

    I don't think people realise the biggest issues are water, food and now batteries. If you can't go without a meal for 24 hours except sweets, canned stone fruits and coffee/tea you really are in the wrong business.

    If operating in snow or cold wet weather the weight changes considerably and outside this discussion as it becomes a battle against the elements as much as the enemy.
    Greetings gentlemen, I come out of that small war of 30 years ago... Rhodesia. I see this issue of weight of kit still is a major issue - some things never change. Do you have the ability to load according to the type of operation or are the equipment tales fixed?

  17. #97
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    The tables tend to be fixed at the worst times. We call it "sticking to the SOP (standard operating procedure)", and unfortunately, there are more times than not where little thought is applied to just what needs to be carried, where it should be located on one's body, and why it is needed in the first place.

    Take the current USMC-issued first aid kit. It tends towards the bulky and almost unnecessary when you look at the components. The trauma supplied as essential, for sure, but the boo-boo kit takes up about half of its girth, and yet the corpsman carries copious quantities of small bandages, salves, and the like. I trimmed mine down to just the trauma care pieces and moved the rest to a small pouch in my camelbak on my back, and the remnant is still bigger than I wish it was.

    As a military, we learned some bad lessons from our smaller conflicts, such as Task Force Ranger's fight in Mogadishu in 1993, where night vision was not carried on the raid, yet reportedly was desired when day turned to night. The actual effectiveness of any IR optics without IR aiming lights remains dubious if you ask me, yet that scenario was trumped out during Officer Candidate School for me a few years later. We hoard gear as a result of the urban legends surrounding incidents like that.

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    My team and I (Civil Affairs) operated with a fair amount of autonomy. The guys we helped were a little fuzzy on how much of our butt the CSM was going to be able to chew when our stuff was non-standard and nowhere near their SOP. And, we were far away from our own flagpole so I never had to worry about my boss crying when the CG showed up to hand out impact Bronze Stars to mechanics and wanted to know why in Sam Hell we didn't have our baby tackle dummy corded to our legs.

    Anyway...

    Even in our situation, common sense and the mission (all too often not the same thing) dictated that we carry the things we needed to get the job done, nothing else, and STILL our individual loads were often oppressive. And, since most guys didn't really appreciate having to take the CA guys out, we often coordinated to redistribute part of the escorting unit's load on us.

    We weren't carrying one piece of stupid gear just because some knucklehead said we had to. Still... man... I fondly remember bopping around in an LBV, medium ruck and K pot "back then".

    I have to acknowledge that my contemporary operational experience is only in Iraq and can only imagine guys out for days on end with all the crap we carried.
    In war there is no prize for the runner-up.

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    Back in the day at TBS, A Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation was required reading. Then they'd proceed to load us up with all sorts of #### when we went to the field. As I realized back then irony comes easy to the Marine Corps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    "a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite."
    This quote begs the question-why just the most elite?
    Five days of expected contact is a really long time, no matter the war.

    One of the things I think that is missing from this thread is what is the combat load of a long range recce light and what is the combat load of a mounted Soldier. Maybe it's a cavalry thing, but off-ramping into a fight is a lot different load out than what is carried onto the vehicle as part of the SOP packing list. Hopping off for a 5 and 25 is usually vest and weapon, which is a lot different than what you take for an OP or even a shorter SKT.

    GI Zhou pointed out that the biggest thing is water. In my OIFs and NTCs that was the back breaker. We'd go out for a day or two, and someone had to carry the jug.
    Few are the problems that cannot be solved by a suitable application of concentrated firepower.

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